Extinction Rebellion

[lazythursday]

I'm less convinced. With regard to internal insulation are people really going to accept losing that much floor space? To bring them up to modern standards will need a hefty slab of insulation unless of course you use a PIR or PUR insulation but if you did that you'd be lining your house with combustible materials.

There is no easy overall solution to this but Solar PV is an easy win. Still, with temperatures hotting up maybe we won't need so much insulation.

Well are people really going to accept not being able to heat their houses? every option has a downside. No insulation + heat pump = lack of comfort. No insulation + hydrogen = much bigger bills. And hydrogen may not even be an option depending on how the technology matures.

What is needed is some kind of expert service that can come and assess your house (from all angles, including suitability for solar PV etc) and issue you a whole-house plan, that can be done in stages or all at once. And new long term financing (and subsidies) that can make that less painful. And that service to manage the contractors etc for you and do quality checks. Or even pay for the whole house upgrade on the basis that you are locked into a long term energy service contract (like the Netherlands Energiesprong model). I know quite a lot about all this and I still struggle to work out what I am best doing to my house - it really isn't good enough to have a grant scheme where the householder is expected to work it all out for themselves.

And yeah, it has to be marketed right as a massive upgrade, a desirable modernisation - at the moment people clearly don't see the benefit (and right now there isn't one, given the cheapness and availability of gas. These old houses with their lovely heritage features may be much less desirable post-gas...)

 

[Teaboy]

What is needed is some kind of expert service that can come and assess your house (from all angles, including suitability for solar PV etc) and issue you a whole-house plan, that can be done in stages or all at once. And new long term financing (and subsidies) that can make that less painful. And that service to manage the contractors etc for you and do quality checks. Or even pay for the whole house upgrade on the basis that you are locked into a long term energy service contract (like the Netherlands Energiesprong model). I know quite a lot about all this and I still struggle to work out what I am best doing to my house - it really isn't good enough to have a grant scheme where the householder is expected to work it all out for themselves.

This is essentially the vision Carillion (remember them) had when they purchased the company I worked for at the time (EAGA) for silly money. Unfortunately Cameron's "greenest government ever" put a kibosh on it by basically cutting all grants, meaning no incentive. Obviously other colourful things were happening with Carillion but I digress.

I worked in EWI for years and I could sit here and talk about u-values and thermal bridging etc but I just cannot see a route to people giving up their beautiful stone or brick façade or losing all that internal space. Also retrofitting existing housing stock does not come without its problems as many home owners who have had cavity fill will tell you (interstitial condensation etc).

It would be a lot easier if most of our housing stock was post-war grimness like a lot of Europe but it aint.

 

[Elpenor]

Questionable if this is possible without tearing down a lot of old housing stock and rebuilding which would no doubt cause emissions too.

The rooms in my old terraced house were 3m x 3m, by the time you include chimney breasts, fireplaces, radiators, doors and windows that’s not much usable space and shrinking it further to add insulation would be a non-starter.

 

[Elpenor]

Of course most of the people protesting probably live in purpose built Grand Design eco houses so wouldn’t get there’s a whole other way of living

 

[Flavour]

The German activists starving themselves to make politicians face the climate crisis

The Last Generation, a six-strong group, is camping out near the Reichstag determined to force a commitment to limit global heating

www.theguardian.com

hunger strike anyone?

 

[lazythursday]

Questionable if this is possible without tearing down a lot of old housing stock and rebuilding which would no doubt cause emissions too.

The rooms in my old terraced house were 3m x 3m, by the time you include chimney breasts, fireplaces, radiators, doors and windows that’s not much usable space and shrinking it further to add insulation would be a non-starter.

So many of the actions we need to do, whether on transport or housing or consumption or whatever, are judged by many to be a non-starter, because they mean some kind of sacrifice or major jolting change from past assumptions. I think we really have to stop thinking like this. If we don't have rapid, concerted action across all sectors of the economy, across all of the developed world, ASAP, we are facing some really serious shit by the 2040s. It's not far away.

Either those houses will be insulated, whatever the cost in space or aesthetics, or in the not too distant future they may either be impossible or prohibitively expensive to heat. People can decide that it's a non starter now but it's just delaying the inevitable.

 

[kenny g]

May as well just rebuild London a few miles up river and leave the crap housing stock to revert to woodland/ marshland in anticipation of rising sea levels.

 

[starfish2000]

Hallam is one fucking loon.

Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?

I was on standby at work watching GMB this morning. They loved it. The paralysed lady story. Lapping it up.

I mean, the environment is an issue that if you were serious about changing requires the consensus of the 1%. But instead you have a guy who doesn’t even go near them? If I was a petrochemical billionaire taking off undisturbed from RAF Northolt this morning I’d be laughing hard into my glass of champagne as my minions continued to raze the planet.

 

[yield]

Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?

I was on standby at work watching GMB this morning. They loved it. The paralysed lady story. Lapping it up.

I mean, the environment is an issue that if you were serious about changing requires the consensus of the 1%. But instead you have a guy who doesn’t even go near them? If I was a petrochemical billionaire taking off undisturbed from RAF Northolt this morning I’d be laughing hard into my glass of champagne as my minions continued to raze the planet.

Maybe so but it is weird. Some of my middle class friends have gotten involved.

It's decentralised, got legs and fractions will form. It's bigger than Hallam

 

[8ball]

Maybe so but it is weird. Some of my middle class friends have gotten involved.

It's decentralised, got legs and fractions will form. It's bigger than Hallam

Yeah, like Insulate Britain.

 

[LDC]

Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?

You tinfoil hat lunatic.

 

[teqniq]

You tinfoil hat lunatic.

You would be foolish not to think that the security services have infiltrated the likes of ER or are attempting to do so. The evidence from the spycops inquiry even though it's very flawed is overwhelming. Apparently though they may not be having so much success on this occasion:

Met police ‘tried to recruit ex-officer to spy on climate change activists’

Former detective says he was asked to inform on fellow Extinction Rebellion campaigners

www.theguardian.com

 

[LDC]

You would be foolish not to think that the security services have infiltrated the likes of ER or are attempting to do so. The evidence from the spycops inquiry even though it's very flawed is overwhelming. Apparently though they may not be having so much success on this occasion:

Met police ‘tried to recruit ex-officer to spy on climate change activists’

Former detective says he was asked to inform on fellow Extinction Rebellion campaigners

www.theguardian.com

It's a very big jump from thinking that they've infiltrated XR to thinking the whole thing is a set-up with Hallam paid to set it up to discredit protest and justify repression.

 

[teqniq]

If I read them correctly, starfish2000 is just talking about Hallam, not the whole movement being a set up.

 

[LDC]

If I read them correctly, starfish2000 is just talking about Hallam, not the whole movement being a set up.

I read what they were saying as suggesting Hallam started XR to discredit protest etc. Anyway, off topic, he's doing a pretty good job of being a fucking idiot without any help from the State.

 

[Serene]

I have noticed that Sky News has a climate change program everyday and relevant data is presented on the screen. I havent seen any other channels doing this on the News. The data they present is interesting, if true. I am not a protestor and nor am I involved with it all in any way, I am an observer and I know that the climate has changed massively since I was young. The work carried out by the protestors I think is very important.

 

[Pickman's model]

The German activists starving themselves to make politicians face the climate crisis

The Last Generation, a six-strong group, is camping out near the Reichstag determined to force a commitment to limit global heating

www.theguardian.com

hunger strike anyone?

I don't think they know anything about previous German hunger strikes

 

[Red Sky]

I think the whole Insulate Britain thing is great. High levels of disruption in pursuit of an almost mundane objective.

 

[pug]

How much insulation will they be satisfied though?

 

[maomao]

I think the whole Insulate Britain thing is great. High levels of disruption in pursuit of an almost mundane objective.

I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.

 

[Teaboy]

I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.

I think with specific regard to council and social housing then I would agree. Most of that housing stock is post war and a lot easier to achieve thermal upgrades, besides as mentioned upthread this has already been happening for many years.

When it comes down to the pre-war (mostly privately owned) housing stock I do think people severely underestimate some of the complexity involved and how achievable it is and I say this as someone more than familiar with the industry.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.

I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?

 

[maomao]

I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?

Go and look at their website.

 

[Elpenor]

I think with specific regard to council and social housing then I would agree. Most of that housing stock is post war and a lot easier to achieve thermal upgrades, besides as mentioned upthread this has already been happening for many years.

When it comes down to the pre-war (mostly privately owned) housing stock I do think people severely underestimate some of the complexity involved and how achievable it is and I say this as someone more than familiar with the industry.

I don’t know a vast amount but housing or insulation but I do know that retrofitting anything is never as easy, aesthetically pleasing or cheap as it being designed in from the outset.

 

[maomao]

Well, when the gulf stream shuts down and the gas runs out there's going to be a lot of very cold people in pretty houses.

 

[Elpenor]

Never mind eat the rich, why not burn them?

 

[Pickman's model]

Never mind eat the rich, why not burn them?

Turning them into penguin feed is supported by 42.8% of people, up from 23.4% last year

 

[Teaboy]

Well, when the gulf stream shuts down and the gas runs out there's going to be a lot of very cold people in pretty houses.

If only it was just about visual appearance, then it would be easy as a mindset shift. There is some serious barriers to retrofitting insulation onto existing buildings.

Still, sounds like my job will be busy and I'm in the right industry.

 

[Idaho]

I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?

Such keen and detailed understanding of something from just a brief scan/synopsis of a news report. With such learning prowess you should go into academia.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Such keen and detailed understanding of something from just a brief scan/synopsis of a news report. With such learning prowess you should go into academia.

Ah right, so they're not just a bunch of rich, white, middle-class wankers, like the rest of XR. I guess everyone must be wrong about them.