Extinction Rebellion

[hitmouse]

But in terms of high profile actions, I would focus completely on a) the finance sector, cos they fund all the bad shit b) new fossil fuel infrastructure, whether that is roads, airports or whatever and c) any new developments that are catastrophic for nature (eg that new theme park in the Thames estuary). Anything else just doesn't help the overall narrative that business as usual has to stop.

I sort of agree with this, but with the unhelpful caveat that, the bigger and more potentially effective a movement it is, the more it's inevitably going to contain people with different ideas about strategy and what to do next. Like, if everyone in XR was taking their orders directly from Hallam or whoever, it'd be more easy to focus in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure that'd make them more effective overall.

 

[Pickman's model]

I sort of agree with this, but with the unhelpful caveat that, the bigger and more potentially effective a movement it is, the more it's inevitably going to contain people with different ideas about strategy and what to do next. Like, if everyone in XR was taking their orders directly from Hallam or whoever, it'd be more easy to focus in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure that'd make them more effective overall.

Tbh there's a danger perhaps of xr being considered 'the movement' whereas it's really one admittedly very loud voice among many. There's loads of other environmental groups who are doing good stuff but whose voices are drowned out by xr.

 

[YouSir]

Tbh there's a danger perhaps of xr being considered 'the movement' whereas it's really one admittedly very loud voice among many. There's loads of other environmental groups who are doing good stuff but whose voices are drowned out by xr.

One voice will always be louder than others, doesn't really matter as long as XR is a conduit to shift people to support other groups and campaigns. No idea if it's serving that role though.

 

[LDC]

But in terms of high profile actions, I would focus completely on a) the finance sector, cos they fund all the bad shit b) new fossil fuel infrastructure, whether that is roads, airports or whatever and c) any new developments that are catastrophic for nature (eg that new theme park in the Thames estuary). Anything else just doesn't help the overall narrative that business as usual has to stop.

The problem with the financial sector as a target is the targets themselves (mostly banks and offices) and what can be done at them. Purely symbolic stuff mostly, and with XR's very tight non-violence stuff not even sure occupations of them could happen?

 

[Gromit]

M25 protests: Activists return to Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent

Police arrest 71 people as activists disrupt motorway traffic in Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent.

www.bbc.co.uk

Irritate Insulate Britain are at it again. Maybe they have shares in Celotex?

Not sure what they hope to achieve.
The government have been offering free insulation to homes for years.

It use to be my job to knock on doors and offer it. This was many years ago and even back them people already had it or just didn't want it. It's free. Don't want it.

Pickings were slim. I can see how blocking the roads will change the public's minds. The government can't do much more that say hey we'll pay for it.

 

[kabbes]

The problem with the financial sector as a target is the targets themselves (mostly banks and offices) and what can be done at them. Purely symbolic stuff mostly, and with XR's very tight non-violence stuff not even sure occupations of them could happen?

Indeed, everybody is still working from home anyway

 

[LDC]

Indeed, everybody is still working from home anyway

Oh shit, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me!

 

[kabbes]

Oh shit, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me!

XR besieged the Lloyd’s building* the other week, which you can more or less see from my work’s office. The one member of my team (out of 23) that was in the office that day gave the rest of us — all working from home — a running commentary of it, whilst we bemusedly wondered who they thought they were actually inconveniencing.


*(As a separate matter, I would note that this is a slightly odd target — Lloyd’s have a high profile strategy on climate change that involves trying to engineer systematic change in their clients’ activities to reduce climate harm. And insurers don’t finance companies, they just provide a route to mitigate any damage they cause. But that’s a different matter).

 

[Badgers]

My opinion on these disruptive activists is mixed...

Climate change is real and the cunts running this world have more than blood on their hands.

If someone missed a holiday BooFuckingHoo that they 'deserved' then fuck them and the polluting ship/plane they came in on. If little Tarquin is a bit behind on his ski skills then have at it.

 

[Teaboy]

Well, it seems to have worked to get the name of their group publicity.

Insulate Britain - Insulate Britain

Humanity is at a pivotal crossroads: accelerated human-caused global heating is threatening to destroy human civilisation unless urgent action is taken to rapidly reduce our greenhouse gas emissions (GHG). The science is not disputed and now is the time to act. Improving the quality of our homes...

www.insulatebritain.com

Not sure if they are XR though.

Its an interesting take on these things and something that I've been banging on about for years as someone who has worked in insulation and the larger insulation industry for some time.

They're right to point out the UK housing stock is a bit of a disaster when it comes to thermal performance as we still have a huge amount of 9" solid brick houses as well as various other stone and non-traditional types of housing. Retrofitting these houses with wall insulation is extremely difficult as there would have to be some very tough choices to be made. Do we want to insulate externally and lose our beautiful brick facades or do we do it internally making all our homes smaller and in the process having to rip out and replace millions of bathrooms and kitchens etc?

Their point regarding the insulating of social housing has been going on for decades now though the government mostly have dumped the cost onto LA's and energy providers (who in turned have passed the cost onto us). This is the reason Grenfell was over-clad, it was nothing to do with beautification it was just that block needed to be upgraded because they all do.

Obviously Grenfell is not a great example but its not correct to say there hasn't been a policy in place for social housing.

 

[lazythursday]

Its an interesting take on these things and something that I've been banging on about for years as someone who has worked in insulation and the larger insulation industry for some time.

They're right to point out the UK housing stock is a bit of a disaster when it comes to thermal performance as we still have a huge amount of 9" solid brick houses as well as various other stone and non-traditional types of housing. Retrofitting these houses with wall insulation is extremely difficult as there would have to be some very tough choices to be made. Do we want to insulate externally and lose our beautiful brick facades or do we do it internally making all our homes smaller and in the process having to rip out and replace millions of bathrooms and kitchens etc?

Their point regarding the insulating of social housing has been going on for decades now though the government mostly have dumped the cost onto LA's and energy providers (who in turned have passed the cost onto us). This is the reason Grenfell was over-clad, it was nothing to do with beautification it was just that block needed to be upgraded because they all do.

Obviously Grenfell is not a great example but its not correct to say there hasn't been a policy in place for social housing.

Yep, the big problem area is older private sector stock, most of which haven't even been eligible for government schemes until recently as they were all targeted at the low hanging fruit of cavity wall and loft insulation, when many of these properties need internal or external wall insulation and/or room-in-attic under-roof insulation. And private rented sector even worse as landlords have zero incentive to make their houses thermally better. I absolutely think we have to get real and encourage external wall insulation and fuck the heritage / aesthetic aspects tbh (and obviously there are a lot of aesthetic options in terms of the final look).

There is lots of research into how to make this happen with various models suggested - one stop shop services for retrofit that will manage al the contractors, whole-house-retrofit models rather than piecemeal, energy/heating as a service models where you sign up for long-term service with the retrofit company (not allowed under our current energy switching rules) etc. What is absolutely clear is that the schemes the government endlessly design are an utter failure, they make it too complex for the householder, enable lots of dodgy cowboy companies to fuck it all up, etc.

 

[andysays]

Not sure what they hope to achieve.
The government have been offering free insulation to homes for years.

It use to be my job to knock on doors and offer it. This was many years ago and even back them people already had it or just didn't want it. It's free. Don't want it.

Pickings were slim. I can see how blocking the roads will change the public's minds. The government can't do much more that say hey we'll pay for it.

One of issues about "free" additional insulation is that it was actually only made available to some people, because many live in homes which weren't suitable for the type of insulation which was available.

My recollection is that it was basically loft and cavity wall stuff which was available, if your home doesn't have cavity walls (mine doesn't) there was no alternative available.

ETA point already made above...

 

[maomao]

I absolutely think we have to get real and encourage external wall insulation and fuck the heritage / aesthetic aspects tbh (and obviously there are a lot of aesthetic options in terms of the final look).

Half the nice brickwork has long been covered in unattractive renders like pebbledash anyway. I live in a street of 1890s semi-detached workers cottages with no cavity walls and less than half have original brickwork on show. The one house with external insulating cladding barely stands out unless you know what you're looking for.

 

[lazythursday]

Half the nice brickwork has long been covered in unattractive renders like pebbledash anyway. I live in a street of 1890s semi-detached workers cottages with no cavity walls and less than half have original brickwork on show. The one house with external insulating cladding barely stands out unless you know what you're looking for.

Quite different round here, where the majority of properties are (very poorly insulated) Victorian stone terraces, and have a very distinctive look. New properties have to be built to look similar too. But I'm guessing that the new ones just have stone cladding on the outside so there's no real reason why the old ones couldn't have that applied too, but at the moment would fall foul of the local planning regulations as far as I know.

 

[kabbes]

When we had a kitchen extension done, it was done with cavity insulation and heritage brick on the outside to maintain the aesthetic. So that was easily resolved, and has just left a small part of one wall that remains single skin. The core part of the house is much older, though, with stone walls, not brick. I have absolutely no idea how that could be insulated without utterly ruining the look of the place, which regardless of my own opinion, the kabbess wouldn’t even begin to countenance. I just accept that the dining room is always going to be cold and avoid pumping heat into it for no reason during the winter months.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The insulation crew blocked the M25 at Wisley (jct 10) yesterday for the second time in a week, the first time the police were fairly understanding and took their time in moving them, this time they were overshadowed by a car exploding at jct 9 around 7am, followed by a serious crash at 9am also at jct 9, so it is understandable that dibble didn't have quite the same patience with them yesterday...

 

[Badgers]

The insulation crew blocked the M25 at Wisley (jct 10) yesterday for the second time in a week, the first time the police were fairly understanding and took their time in moving them, this time they were overshadowed by a car exploding at jct 9 around 7am, followed by a serious crash at 9am also at jct 9, so it is understandable that dibble didn't have quite the same patience with them yesterday...

Hopefully Dibble will get a lot of overtime when the water wars start

 

[Teaboy]

Of course if we could insulate the walls of all the old housing stock it would also get rid of a lot of the damp problems.

 

[Badgers]

Of course if we could insulate the walls of all the old housing stock it would also get rid of a lot of the damp problems.

WHO WILL FUND THAT????

THE BILLIONAIRES????

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Hopefully Dibble will get a lot of overtime when the water wars start

Water needed




Water not needed




Not sure if the air ambulance that attended #2 was powered by woven honey though...

 

[Teaboy]

WHO WILL FUND THAT????

THE BILLIONAIRES????

Sorry guv. I work in construction not financing.

Edit: I do think this demand to insulate all homes is a bit of a dead end tbh. Resources would be better directed at renewable clean energy.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Sorry guv. I work in construction not financing.

Edit: I do think this demand to insulate all homes is a bit of a dead end tbh. Resources would be better directed at renewable clean energy.

You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.

 

[Saul Goodman]

You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.

Insulated dry lining.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Insulated dry lining.

Wasn't allowed as the poxy place was listed. Happy to say we now live in a place where I can lounge around in my y-fonts all day, even in the depths of winter

 

[Teaboy]

You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.

Stick a big slab on insulation on the inside or outside. That's all you can do. This is before we start talking about how much heat loss is through the floor...

I think we'd be better off starting with sticking solar PV on every roof out there. Its far more achievable and less intrusive. We may not have the most sun in the UK but thanks to the lack of snow (in most of the UK) we do have a lot of gently pitched roofs which are ideal for solar.

 

[lazythursday]

Adding solar PV won't do an awful lot regarding the challenge of heating older properties though. Without better insulation heat pumps aren't a good option.

The only real alternative is hydrogen - and jury still out on that. It may only be an option for some regions. And given its much less efficient than burning methane, it is likely to be more expensive and so reducing heat loss will still be really important.

 

[Teaboy]

Adding solar PV won't do an awful lot regarding the challenge of heating older properties though. Without better insulation heat pumps aren't a good option.

If we get plentiful clean energy then heat loss will become less of an issue. I've being saying the same thing on the EV thread its about was is achievable not what would happen in an ideal world.

I live in a conservation zone, you can barely change a lightbulb round here without getting planning permission. The idea that all the beautiful London Stock town houses that stretch as far as the eye can see will suddenly get an EWI system is so far fetched as to be a non-starter.

Solar panels on every roof and make landlords and commercial freeholders responsible for bringing their properties up to a high standard. That is achievable and something that will have to happen anyway so it may as well happen now.

 

[lazythursday]

If we get plentiful clean energy then heat loss will become less of an issue. I've being saying the same thing on the EV thread its about was is achievable not what would happen in an ideal world.

I live in a conservation zone, you can barely change a lightbulb round here without getting planning permission. The idea that all the beautiful London Stock town houses that stretch as far as the eye can see will suddenly get an EWI system is so far fetched as to be a non-starter.

Solar panels on every roof and make landlords and commercial freeholders responsible for bringing their properties up to a high standard. That is achievable and something that will have to happen anyway so it may as well happen now.

It doesn't matter how much solar energy you are generating if your heat pump just won't heat the house properly because of poor thermal ability. I'm not against widespread solar at all, but I don't think the sums add up in terms of compensating for heat loss.

I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.

 

[Pickman's model]

It doesn't matter how much solar energy you are generating if your heat pump just won't heat the house properly because of poor thermal ability. I'm not against widespread solar at all, but I don't think the sums add up in terms of compensating for heat loss.

I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.

Not moving away from methane will be even more expensive

 

[Teaboy]

I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.

I'm less convinced. With regard to internal insulation are people really going to accept losing that much floor space? To bring them up to modern standards will need a hefty slab of insulation unless of course you use a PIR or PUR insulation but if you did that you'd be lining your house with combustible materials.

There is no easy overall solution to this but Solar PV is an easy win. Still, with temperatures hotting up maybe we won't need so much insulation.