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Extinction Rebellion

platinumsage said:
What’s that got to do with a climate emergency? If extinction rebellion can’t think of a better target than WWF then maybe it’s not an emergency? Or maybe they’re just really counterproductively bad at selecting targets, which we know they are from past experience.
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When their main donors are Tesco & Coca-Cola it seems like one big greenwash. Partnering with businesses

And the biggest threat to endangered wildlife is obviously climate change.
 
Anyway it seems to have been a very few people involved in this with LBC & the Daily Mail seeming to be the only ones reporting it.



The way XR is set up means you’ll get people carrying out fringe actions like Canning Town & this but you’re playing into certain right wing types if you discredit the whole organisation based on these.

EDIT: other XR branches seem to be openly supporting WWF.

 
Where is the WWF building? There were loads of xr on the south side of the river today, across from the tower. I assumed they were the bridge lot from yesterday trying to have another go. Then, around 12.30, loads of cops appeared at London bridge and immediately closed it but I couldn't see any protestors. Lots of xr with their kids round by bank though.

They certainly seemed to have the old bill spooked. There was a helicopter over the city for most of the day.
 
I can't say that myself and Martin are close enough to actually be friends.

But I have met the guy a number of times.

And I'll say this about him - he's in no way arrogant and condescending like certain people on here.
 
Count Cuckula said:
This whole thing is purely symbolic. I guess that's the problem really.
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Not sure it's that simple, symbolism has its place; pickets for example are sometimes symbolic (as are many strikes nowadays) so I do think it's OK for some of that. And plenty of things look symbolic but also have real world measureable impacts. What I wonder is how much 'symbolic' stuff can be done before it starts to feel pointless for the participants and supporters and people slowly drift off. Same with blocking roads, it has a limited point and life, and public sympathy will wane past a certain point I think.

There's also a slight danger people get a bit fixed on the reaction of the police as well, and mistake the cops reactions as being related to the effectiveness of the action, and then the thing gets diverted into being about what happens 'in the street' rather than the wider impact.

E2A: Something on R4 'More or Less' (I know, shoot me now...) just now about the huge costs for policing XR, whch is a good reminder/point that even if things look purely symbolic, they do often have impacts you can't easily see or judge such as the policing costs mentioned.
 
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LynnDoyleCooper said:
Not sure it's that simple, symbolism has its place; pickets for example are sometimes symbolic (as are many strikes nowadays) so I do think it's OK for some of that. And plenty of things look symbolic but also have real world measureable impacts. What I wonder is how much 'symbolic' stuff can be done before it starts to feel pointless for the participants and supporters and people slowly drift off. Same with blocking roads, it has a limited point and life, and public sympathy will wane past a certain point I think.

There's also a slight danger people get a bit fixed on the reaction of the police as well, and mistake the cops reactions as being related to the effectiveness of the action, and then the thing gets diverted into being about what happens 'in the street' rather than the wider impact.

E2A: Something on R4 'More or Less' (I know, shoot me now...) just now about the huge costs for policing XR, whch is a good reminder/point that even if things look purely symbolic, they do often have impacts you can't easily see or judge such as the policing costs mentioned.
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The policing costs are a choice not a necessity
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Yeah they're shit. But to what end is the point of targeting them on climate change? XR won't stop them doing anything, so it's purely symbolic and media message related, and I suspect it'll just confuse things and look weird to many people. Happy to be convinced otherwise, but it does smack of the Four Lions 'bomb the mosque' sketch a bit to me.
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On a wider point, beyond the particular targeting of WWF:

The whole XR thing appears to me to be purely symbolic and media message related.

None of their actions are realistically about stopping climate change, which is too wide reaching a goal for simple physical actions to really make a difference, unlike say, picketing a workplace or preventing road building where those physical actions can potentially achieve a specific goal.

As has been mentioned, possibly on another thread, real effective action to stop climate change has to involve a range of activities, including collective action by workers in particular industries.

This sort of thing is way beyond the scope of what a group like XR can ever hope to do, IMO, which isn't so much a criticism of their actions, as a criticism of their apparent inability to see the limitations of those actions and move beyond them.

Maybe some of the people involved will start to recognise this and to organise in different ways, and that could certainly be a positive, but simply getting more people to take part in this sort of spectacular protest doesn't seem that productive, unfortunately
 
andysays said:
As has been mentioned, possibly on another thread, real effective action to stop climate change has to involve a range of activities, including collective action by workers in particular industries.

This sort of thing is way beyond the scope of what a group like XR can ever hope to do, IMO, which isn't so much a criticism of their actions, as a criticism of their apparent inability to see the limitations of those actions and move beyond them.

Maybe some of the people involved will start to recognise this and to organise in different ways, and that could certainly be a positive, but simply getting more people to take part in this sort of spectacular protest doesn't seem that productive, unfortunately
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That XR healthcare stuff is interesting and potentially very exciting, but...

What you say about the workers stuff is basically right, and/but it's also the traditional mating call of the left (inc. lots of anarchists) when stuff like XR happens so often gets dismissed as old lefties bleating.

I think what needs talking about as it gets missed is not that it's just workers that need to 'be involved' (as they are, both with all the XR actions and then these specific worker ones like above) but it's the terrain/type of stuff that they then do, which basically need to be in and around their work as that's the thing that can impact capital the most, not dragging them out of work to do actions like this.

Having a bunch of people from X workplace/worker type doing a die-in outside an office of something doesn't change the impact that much whoever does it, they're doing it as individuals (even with the messaging). Having them refuse to work or disrupt their workplace for the climate struggle would be highly relevant, and also much more repeatable and so potentially spread...

Caveat; know this is much simpler to say than do.
 
Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective. No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.

It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.
 
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Count Cuckula said:
Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective. No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.

It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.
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Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?

Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?
 
andysays said:
Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?

Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?
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Are you sure the criticisms on this thread pass the count cuckula threshold of real criticism?
 
Count Cuckula said:
Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective. No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.

It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.
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One of the good things about XR is it's strategy for getting numbers out.
 
andysays said:
Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?

Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?
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Well all I know is that I shared a brief video containing valid criticisms of XR and an unpleasant pile-on ensued.
 
Speaking from Cornwall, most would say who? Some might say didn't they screw uptraffic or something? Rest would look baffled, people don't have time to care, or interest. Us stock market is fucked soon, who noticed? Probably barely anyone, same as most 'fringe' activities.
 
andysays said:
I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but criticism of your posting of a video critical of XR doesn't mean XR is beyond any criticism, it just means some people were critical of the form your criticism took.
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On account of the form the video’s criticism took being wide open to criticism because it was poor in content and argument and shit in delivery. Even if it was by a mate of yours.
 
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