Extinction Rebellion

[Jennastan]

Hmmm. my jokes are rarely funny. Need a new script writer. Might have offered Pickman's model the job but now im aware that he aint up to it.. i'll ask editor i think. He/she very humourous.

last time i checked editor was a he, but you never know....

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Not sure if this has been shared but it's a good read from XR Scotland with more analysis that XR London /UK is demonstrating to date

 

[redcogs]

i always fear that if we show how truly imminent climate change is, and how horrifying the outcome, we drive people into fear and paralysis. There probably is a middle ground where we give hope, but then too much positivity is when people feel that there isn't actually any urgency here - the *it'll be sorted out by politicians and scientists* idea.

ive only come to feel the fear and urgency recently Jennastan, im guessing, but if a Left wing semi fanatic politically conscious geezer such as i have only recently realised the desperate shit thats coming, there is a reasonable chance that there are many who still need a nudge. Although i understand your argument, im less concerned about fear and paralysis, and more anxious that ignorance about the issues is an impediment.

 

[Jennastan]

ive only come to feel the fear and urgency recently Jennastan, im guessing, but if a Left wing semi fanatic politically conscious geezer such as i have only recently realised the desperate shit thats coming, there is a reasonable chance that there are many who still need a nudge. Although i understand your argument, im less concerned about fear and paralysis, and more anxious that ignorance about the issues is an impediment.

I like to point out to people that the things we need to do to halt climate change are also good things to do in and of themselves, because they promote equality, improve quality of life, reduce the impact of industry, free society from consumerism, etc. - my argument would be that even if climate change isn't happening these are good things that we should be doing, and then engaging people that way.

Maybe fear works for some people but i see people for whom fear is not a motivating force, or at least not in the way we would want it to be.

 

[redcogs]

And i like those arguments too. But so far the Left has failed to convince enough people to radically transform society on the basis of using a similar rationalist appeal? On the box the other evening a bloke was asked if he was concerned out global warming and what he thought about XR. The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer, and saw it as an opportunity to sell more drinks and barbicues..

He may not have been typical, but i feel that many many people are largely unaware of the seriousness.

 

[Jennastan]

But so far the Left has failed to convince enough people to radically transform society on the basis of using a similar rationalist appeal? On the box the other evening a bloke was asked if he was concerned out global warming and what he thought about XR. The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer, and saw it as an opportunity to sell more drinks and barbicues..

I'm not sure the left have tried very hard tbh; I'm used to seeing it dismissed as a middle class or purely western concern. I'm hoping that changes now.

I just feel that we ought not to scare people off who maybe have just come to their first meeting for years, or ever. A positive message of change can never hurt. As for the dickheads we'll never change them, we just need to outnumber them I think, and make them look like the dinosaurs they are.

 

[Gramsci]

quotes messed up

 

[Gramsci]

In fairness that’s not an anti-immigration position; rather anti-mass-migration. Very few political ideologies expound unfettered access for immigrants. Even the Green Party immigration policy, probably the fluffiest of the mainstream, isn’t an open borders one. His views are undoubtedly shared by many other ER supporters. Concern for climate change and concerns regarding large scale immigration may not be obvious bedfellows but they’re hardly mutually exclusive.

Inevitably you have a situation among many Extinction Rebellion supporters where the only common ground is climate change. Therefore you have such diametrically opposed views as those of the idiots who patronisingly and damagingly single out “black people and ethnic minorities” for special attention, and the likes of Rupert Read, walking hand in hand down Oxford Street. A fair few nazis are likely concerned about global warming too.

Love immigrants, rather than large-scale immigration
Ive just re read the article. The whole tone of it is anti immigration.

It comes out with all the usual stuff. Like immigrants pushing down wages and conditions of work.

You say undoubtedly that many other XR supporters share Reads views. What is your evidence of that? I have talked to lot of XR supporters at this protest, previous protest and locally. I can assure you they don't share Reads views.

As well as the usual I'm not racist but arguments he also tries to link curtailing immigration to climate change. That every immigrant here puts up this countries carbon footprint.

This is blaming migrants for a carbon based economy. Its the carbon based industry that is the problem not migrants.

Its really insidious argument. Reduce immigration help to save the planet.

When he is talking about "mass" /high immigration ,if one reads the article, its about the recent immigration from other EU countries

This, incidentally, is why Gordon Brown was so keen on New Labour's high-immigration policy

This is no different from Farage. Farage would argue he is not racist.

So for Read "mass" migration is free movement within EU.

If that is his defintition of mass migration then its imo anti immigration argument in practise.

Worse is his support of the idea that immigration reducss social cohesion , a more divided society and is against the interests of "working class Britons".

The last reference to "Britons" is in an area like mine of working class Black British whose parents came from Carribbean obvious reference to white people.

I thought this country had got beyond this kind of nativist view of society. Read is using climate change to give it new credibility.

On reducing social cohesion. I live in London spent my time here working alongside immigrants. My partner is one. Lack of social cohesion in this country is caused by the gross increase in equality since Thatcher. That and austerity.

Its not immigrants.

 

[Gramsci]

Not sure if this has been shared but it's a good read from XR Scotland with more analysis that XR London /UK is demonstrating to date

Yes another poster has shared those banners. But the Twitter message from XR Scotland no.

I took photo of the decolonise banner in Marsham street.

I'm glad that XR Scotland are starting open debate on this.

From XR Scotland Twitter post by Miss-Shelf

- Migration caused by impacts of climate and ecological emergency is met by hostile border policies that leave people to drown and keeps them in indefinite detention.

Yes, the crisis will come for everyone. But there are massively unjust ways this is damaging some people more than others. And when we erase that, when we ignore the voices of those on the frontlines and who have the most at stake, when we focus only on ‘our children’ and not the people who are dying now, we risk leaving space for eco-fascism. By refusing to name the causes of both the climate crisis and other social injustices–colonialism and capitalism—XR will continue to alienate the people who are already living at the sharp end of the system that is ultimately killing us all.

In the run-up to the October International Rebellion, members of XR Scotland chose to highlight these issues, and to respond to the concerns of women of colour in our group being dismissed by key figures in XR UK, by creating banners reading ‘DECOLONISE XR’ and ‘CLIMATE STRUGGLE = CLASS STRUGGLE’. Many people, and other groups in XR such as Extinction Rebellion Youth, Global Justice Rebellion and XR Internationalist Solidarity Network, applauded these banners. Others in XR UK

I read this as disagreement with Hallam and Read- key figures in XR.

I think XR Scotland are right.

 

[8ball]

Overheard conversations today:

XR is a money-making scam
XR admitting to be hypocrites still means they’re hypocrites
It’s all about brown people breeding too fast (dealt with this one a bunch of times- this one wasn’t going to be a productive one so left it)

 

[Gramsci]

How are you Miss-Shelf ?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

How are you Miss-Shelf ?

In relation to XR?

 

[Gramsci]

In relation to XR?

Its been a hard week for XR in London I guess you were helping so wondered how ur now its finished.

I guess it's been pretty exhausting.

 

[WouldBe]

i*it'll be sorted out by politicians and scientists* idea.

Not if the best they can come up with is plastic trees to absorb CO2 or XR's idea of getting rid of gas boilers. What would you replace them with?

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Its been a hard week for XR in London I guess you were helping so wondered how ur now its finished.

I guess it's been pretty exhausting.

To be honest I only did some arrest support as I have had a huge amount of work in my day job and just couldn't split myself in 10 pieces. so I've been involved but from a distance which has been interesting [and a lot less tiring]
My london based group have a lot to think about now and discuss but we're pretty much all on the same page as XR scotland

 

[smokedout]

Maybe fear works for some people but i see people for whom fear is not a motivating force, or at least not in the way we would want it to be.

The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation. Fear won't work. Neither will religious grief. Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.

 

[Jennastan]

Not if the best they can come up with is plastic trees to absorb CO2 or XR's idea of getting rid of gas boilers. What would you replace them with?

i hope you realise i was saying that ironically.

 

[WouldBe]

i hope you realise i was saying that ironically.

Sorry I can't tell anymore.

 

[LDC]

The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation. Fear won't work. Neither will religious grief. Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.

Posted that on the FB page of the XR group where I live, will report on the fall out!

 

[8ball]

The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation. Fear won't work. Neither will religious grief. Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.

Liked for the first insight. Re: your second point, I don’t think that will work either.

 

[WouldBe]

The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer,

A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.

 

[Jennastan]

A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.

or it could mean many more deaths in the summer from the heat, and water shortages, more disease, invasive species - huge infrastructure costs - and complete collapse of the local eco system meaning we wouldn't be able to grow anything.

Plus many more refugees leaving places that are uninhabitable leading to more wars over resources and all the problems that that will bring.

 

[redcogs]

A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.

according to Hallam:

"The IPCC reported in October 2018 that we have to reduce carbon emissions by 40% inthe next 12 years to have a 50% chance of avoiding ‘catastrophe’. And yet in 2018 emissions went up from an increase of 1.6% in 2017 to an increase of 2.7%. Carbon levels went up by 3.5 parts per million (ppm) in the past year to reach 415ppm. We are now only ten years away from 450ppm ,the level equivalent to 2 C average temperature rise. We are looking here a the slow and agonising suffering and death of billions of people"

 

[redcogs]

As you realise im very strong on cut and paste technology

 

[andysays]

A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.

It could do, if global warming was confined to the British Isles, but as the name suggests, it's rather more widespread than that

 

[BigTom]

It could do, if global warming was confined to the British Isles, but as the name suggests, it's rather more widespread than that

Also worth remembering one of the likely outcomes of climate change for the uk is that the atlantic conveyor stops and we get a lot, lot colder. You only have to look at other places in North America and Russia on a similar latitude to the UK to see how much colder we would get if this happens.

 

[WouldBe]

As you realise im very strong on cut and paste technology

But not very strong on irony.

 

[redcogs]

Sorry WouldBe my misunderstanding.. i didn't mean to come across as some finger wagging git.

 

[Marty1]

according to Hallam:

"The IPCC reported in October 2018 that we have to reduce carbon emissions by 40% inthe next 12 years to have a 50% chance of avoiding ‘catastrophe’. And yet in 2018 emissions went up from an increase of 1.6% in 2017 to an increase of 2.7%. Carbon levels went up by 3.5 parts per million (ppm) in the past year to reach 415ppm. We are now only ten years away from 450ppm ,the level equivalent to 2 C average temperature rise. We are looking here a the slow and agonising suffering and death of billions of people"

Andrew Neil interviewed XR activist and spokesperson ‘Zion Lights’ on those very apocalyptic predictions.



To say she floundered in her responses would be an understatement.

 

[redcogs]

i didn't think that Zion Lights was too bad with her responses Marty1. Neil is an intimidating rotweiller of an interviewer, and by focussing on a variety of data he is able to obfuscate the argument. Its his job. In the end, it comes down to who we are inclined to agree with doesn't it? i prefer not to agree with those whose entire career has involved speaking to the vested interests of capital and the continuation of a fossil fuel economy.