Entirely unashamed anti car propaganda, and the more the better.

[weltweit]

Fucking hell - are you on a retainer from the RAC or something?

I just thoughts I would list some things that are good about car ownership without saying that cars themselves are great, which otherwise could also be said.

Anyway, it's selfish attitudes like that that lead to the health and environmental problems that we're all facing.

Quite right .. cars can cause congestion and pollution and accidents deaths and injury and more .. they aren't wholly benign things, there are two sides to the story but it would be unfair to deny the benefits.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I just thoughts I would list some things that are good about car ownership without saying that cars themselves are great, which otherwise could also be said.


Quite right .. cars can cause congestion and pollution and accidents deaths and injury and more .. they aren't wholly benign things, there are two sides to the story but it would be unfair to deny the benefits.

The health of the population and protecting the environment automatically trump so-called benefits of owning a car. That's why they should be banned for most people, with appropriate exemptions. There are benefits to using asbestos, but nobody would seriously suggest that convenience of using it outweighs the impact on health.

 

[Hollis]

Quite right .. cars can cause congestion and pollution and accidents deaths and injury and more .. they aren't wholly benign things, there are two sides to the story but it would be unfair to deny the benefits.

There are benefits, but alot of those are reflective of the current transport system - alot would still exist with reduced car usage and better public transport.

Also I thinks its useful to distinguish between car ownershp and car usage... if certain types of journey were targeted then this would still reduce congestion, travel times for both cars and buses, and improve the environment.

 

[Aladdin]

The current covid 19 crisis has left me thinking I will never board a plane, train, tram, ship or bus ever again. As walking is not an option anymore, I will get a small electric car and be perfectly happy with that. It wont cause congestion and it will not emit poisonous and dangerous gases.

 

[Winot]

The benefit to the individual of driving (in some circumstances) is unarguable. It’s also unarguable that everyone driving damages the environment, either locally (congestion) or on a wider scale (pollution). Essentially, driving a car is a selfish act. Not every journey, but overall.

Accordingly, leaving it up to the individual isn’t going to work. Humans are not very good at taking decisions which are personally awkward but are for the greater good. That is why the state has to intervene.

What needs to happen is fairly straightforward. The difficulty is political. How does the state do what is needed without getting voted out?

What I find interesting is that even on Urban 75 (which has more socialists than anywhere else I know), people are so against the state intervening for the greater good.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What I find interesting is that even on Urban 75 (which has more socialists than anywhere else I know), people are so against the state intervening for the greater good.

A lot of those people sold out for a set of heated wing mirrors a while ago it seems.

This is a place where the statement 'I don't give a shit about future generations, I just like making vroom vroom noises in a densely populated area' is perfectly acceptable.

 

[deeyo]

So someone who lives an hour's drive away is entirely inaccessible to you otherwise? I think I'm missing something here.

It's not just social cost though is It? Though that is huge- The car has enabled a selfish elitism that has costs to communities and local business. We all want to get places so quickly we dont stop to smell the roses, build connections and invest in our communities. It has massive environmental costs as well as political. Wars are waged for oil and petroleum and many lives are lost.

I'm pretty sure with a bit of creativity that your life could be just as good without a car.

Our society is built around the car. Its central to the western way of living. Global car production continues to rise.
Things haven't always been this way, it's not the same all over the world, (see JimW s posts) and it won't be forever, but to change this would mean to change the structure of society radically.
There is neither popular nor political support for any radical restrictions on car usage.
That would have to be created. I don't think shaming people is the way to go. Its more likely to cause guilt, irritation and defiance.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Our society is built around the car. Its central to the western way of living.

I guess I must be dead then because I live in the west and I don't have a car. Much of my generation doesn't.

 

[planetgeli]

I'd like to know what sort of utopian state some people envisage and how they envisage it coming about in the context of 30 years of cuts in public transport, especially in rural areas, and how these 'appropriate exemptions' are going to be made available in the light of the current situation where e.g the current PIP mobility allowance has been cut back to the point of if you have the ability to drive a car, you probably don't need one (and so almost certainly won't get one).

I live in a rural area. My nearest local shop is 2 miles away. My nearest bus stop is 2 miles away. Buses are extremely limited, ridiculously limited, fantastically expensive. My commute to work since being made redundant from my last job 3 years ago is now a 60 mile round trip. Nobody here has talked about the need for making employment availabilities more local, not that that is even possible where I live. I can't walk more than 400m, slowly, without serious pain that leaves me unable to go further. I don't qualify for PIP. I don't even qualify for a disabled badge. So how are we to magically move to 'appropriate exemptions' when the current rules are so draconian.

What faith are people drawing from recent government that makes them feel these views are anything other than metropolitan based pie-in-the-sky?

As one further example, a new cycle track has long been promised near me. Leaving aside the fact that personally I have a disability that makes it impossible for me to cycle long distances (any distances) anyway, this cycle track, long proposed, is intended to cover 16 miles between my nearest town and the next big town. In the last 12 months they have built 750m of this track. Farmer's objections are expected to take up to 5 more years before anything like completion can be envisaged.

After reading this you may think I am an appropriate exemption. Where am I supposed to draw faith from that anyone outside of Urban will ever think this?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

A lot of those people sold out for a set of heated wing mirrors a while ago it seems.

This is a place where the statement 'I don't give a shit about future generations, I just like making vroom vroom noises in a densely populated area' is perfectly acceptable.

I’ll bite; how exactly is owning a car saying that you don’t give a shit about future generations?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

The benefit to the individual of driving (in some circumstances) is unarguable. It’s also unarguable that everyone driving damages the environment, either locally (congestion) or on a wider scale (pollution). Essentially, driving a car is a selfish act. Not every journey, but overall.

Accordingly, leaving it up to the individual isn’t going to work. Humans are not very good at taking decisions which are personally awkward but are for the greater good. That is why the state has to intervene.

What needs to happen is fairly straightforward. The difficulty is political. How does the state do what is needed without getting voted out?

Just ban the fuckers and let them squeal - it would be fun to see the petrolhead twats whinge about it

Or make it so expensive that people will change their behaviour. Perhaps an escalating 'death tax' for selfish drivers pegged at the number of miles they cover.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I’ll bite; how exactly is owning a car saying that you don’t give a shit about future generations?

Because your a selfish cunt who doesn't care about the future environmental health of the planet. It's quite straightforward.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I’ll bite; how exactly is owning a car saying that you don’t give a shit about future generations?

It's not, but people here have actually said 'I don't give a shit about future generations' in pretty much those exact words.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'd like to know what sort of utopian state some people envisage and how they envisage it coming about in the context of 30 years of cuts in public transport, especially in rural areas, and how these 'appropriate exemptions' are going to be made available in the light of the current situation where e.g the current PIP mobility allowance has been cut back to the point of if you have the ability to drive a car, you probably don't need one (and so almost certainly won't get one).

I live in a rural area. My nearest local shop is 2 miles away. My nearest bus stop is 2 miles away. Buses are extremely limited, ridiculously limited, fantastically expensive. My commute to work since being made redundant from my last job 3 years ago is now a 60 mile round trip. Nobody here has talked about the need for making employment availabilities more local, not that that is even possible where I live. I can't walk more than 400m, slowly, without serious pain that leaves me unable to go further. I don't qualify for PIP. I don't even qualify for a disabled badge. So how are we to magically move to 'appropriate exemptions' when the current rules are so draconian.

What faith are people drawing from recent government that makes them feel these views are anything other than metropolitan based pie-in-the-sky?

As one further example, a new cycle track has long been promised near me. Leaving aside the fact that personally I have a disability that makes it impossible for me to cycle long distances (any distances) anyway, this cycle track, long proposed, is intended to cover 16 miles between my nearest town and the next big town. In the last 12 months they have built 750m of this track. Farmer's objections are expected to take up to 5 more years before anything like completion can be envisaged.

After reading this you may think I am an appropriate exemption. Where am I supposed to draw faith from that anyone outside of Urban will ever think this?

The solution is to find a culturally vibrant area of a big city with good public transport and wave a wad of cash around to move in and force out the locals. It’s teuchtertastic.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It's not, but people here have actually said 'I don't give a shit about future generations' in pretty much those exact words.

You did, in those exact words, doofus

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Because your a selfish cunt who doesn't care about the future environmental health of the planet. It's quite straightforward.

You say that like it’s a bad thing

 

[SpookyFrank]

You did, in those exact words, doofus

I know you are but what am I.

 

[SpookyFrank]

As one further example, a new cycle track has long been promised near me. Leaving aside the fact that personally I have a disability that makes it impossible for me to cycle long distances (any distances) anyway, this cycle track, long proposed, is intended to cover 16 miles between my nearest town and the next big town. In the last 12 months they have built 750m of this track. Farmer's objections are expected to take up to 5 more years before anything like completion can be envisaged.

Are you saying the cycle track shouldn't get built? Would you rather that some people who aren't as car-dependent as you switch to bikes, creating less traffic for you to deal with and cleaner air for everyone?

I do understand, well probably I don't understand but I recognise, the concerns you have about restrictions on cars not being applied fairly. It's not something I can solve with a soundbite here. But if there's good faith then solutions can be found. The current status quo is not based on good faith, nor is it fair to the many people whose lives could genuinely be improved by having a car, but who cannot afford one.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

You say that like it’s a bad thing

Self confessed selfish cunt.

 

[planetgeli]

Are you saying the cycle track shouldn't get built? Would you rather that some people who aren't as car-dependent as you switch to bikes, creating less traffic for you to deal with and cleaner air for everyone?

Absolutely bemused where your first question comes from. Of course it should get built, I'm outlining the modern day practicalities, down to the dominant culture, of why it isn't getting built.

Second question, of course I would.

I don't believe the good faith exists, and is completely overrun by the politics of especially the last 30 years. I thought I was pretty clear in my view that what is being expressed by some here ignores the realities of the last 30, if not more years.

How are you going to change that? I don't expect soundbites. But it's soundbites I'm seeing in expressing those simplistic views.

Thanks for at least approaching what I've said though. Others don't seem so keen to.

 

[weltweit]

Self confessed selfish cunt.

It isn't a selfish act to own and use a car. My use of a car, here in the sticks, creates hardly any damage for others and were I to give it up I wouldn't benefit others in the slightest, I would just damage my own life chances and those of my family.

If you are a city dweller, suffering under pollution, and with good public transport options then the equation is different, In city centres there is often a genuine public transport alternative.

Just putting up blanket statements like yours above don't really advance the discussion imo.

 

[weltweit]

..
.. nor is it fair to the many people whose lives could genuinely be improved by having a car, but who cannot afford one.

Being able to afford a car is also about one's priorities at the time. Second hand cars can be had for £500 and insurance and road tax can be spread out, petrol depends on how many miles you do as does maintenance. During a recent period of unemployment on JSA (I was unemployed for more than a year) I continued to run my car and although it was tight I managed to pay my bills and keep my car on the road. It was a priority for me as I knew it would be unlikely I would win a job without one. And that proved to be the case in the end.

 

[WouldBe]

Then some clever sod goes, if we run our business on this brownfield site on the edge of nowhere, we can have more space for less money.

The main problem is where do you find a large plot of land big enough in the middle of a congested ( building wise) town or city to build a large factory or warehouse? And then it would depend if the council granted planning permission.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The main problem is where do you find a large plot of land big enough in the middle of a congested ( building wise) town or city to build a large factory or warehouse? And then it would depend if the council granted planning permission.

I was thinking about offices, service sector stuff, as well as retail and leisure more than factories. Again, anything that needs HGVs coming and going is better off on the edge of a city. Getting workers to work in those factories is another challenge again.

There are however industrial and commercial buildings being converted to overpriced housing in many urban centres, which is daft and easy to change with proper planning rules. Basically if it's not providing ordinary folk with housing or work it shouldn't get built.

The traditional industrial heart of my city is half empty nowadays because the many beautiful buildings there are in too trendy a part of town for their own good and nobody can afford to use them. The luxury housing market is hypersaturated already, and it's cheaper to build new shit than convert listed buildings so they just gather dust. It's a fucking mad situation.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Blah, blah...cleaner air for everyone?

Utterly ignoring the rapid march towards electric vehicles. Of course once everyone is gliding around in them the hand wringing liberals who never managed to get it together to join the adult car owning population will still moan like fuck.

 

[Aladdin]

If this covid19 becomes a regular thing we may all be working differently . Many of us may work from home. And transportation wont be required for work.
No more junket trips for meetings in other countries. No more flying.
Surely that will have a huge effect on global warming.

 

[teuchter]

I'd like to know what sort of utopian state some people envisage and how they envisage it coming about in the context of 30 years of cuts in public transport, especially in rural areas, and how these 'appropriate exemptions' are going to be made available in the light of the current situation where e.g the current PIP mobility allowance has been cut back to the point of if you have the ability to drive a car, you probably don't need one (and so almost certainly won't get one).

I live in a rural area. My nearest local shop is 2 miles away. My nearest bus stop is 2 miles away. Buses are extremely limited, ridiculously limited, fantastically expensive. My commute to work since being made redundant from my last job 3 years ago is now a 60 mile round trip. Nobody here has talked about the need for making employment availabilities more local, not that that is even possible where I live. I can't walk more than 400m, slowly, without serious pain that leaves me unable to go further. I don't qualify for PIP. I don't even qualify for a disabled badge. So how are we to magically move to 'appropriate exemptions' when the current rules are so draconian.

What faith are people drawing from recent government that makes them feel these views are anything other than metropolitan based pie-in-the-sky?

As one further example, a new cycle track has long been promised near me. Leaving aside the fact that personally I have a disability that makes it impossible for me to cycle long distances (any distances) anyway, this cycle track, long proposed, is intended to cover 16 miles between my nearest town and the next big town. In the last 12 months they have built 750m of this track. Farmer's objections are expected to take up to 5 more years before anything like completion can be envisaged.

After reading this you may think I am an appropriate exemption. Where am I supposed to draw faith from that anyone outside of Urban will ever think this?

You've just described the horrendous damage car dependancy does. You are describing a world that has been created by the car. What caused 30 years of public transport cuts? Would they have happened if everyone had been dependant on public transport, instead of being able to bypass it?

For the record, I am not in any way unfamiliar with the issues in rural areas; I said early on that they are harder to solve and we should tackle urban areas first.

What are the views that you think are metropolitan pie-in-the-sky? Do you think people are seriously proposing to ban cars outright in rural areas without doing anything about providing alternatives?

 

[teuchter]

By the way, can we establish the fact that moving from petrol/diesel to electric, whenever it happens, solves maybe 10% of the problems caused by individual, privately owned vehicles. If we are being generous. Some people seem to still be underbthe illusion that this is the get-out-of-jail-free card.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I live in a rural area. My nearest local shop is 2 miles away. My nearest bus stop is 2 miles away. Buses are extremely limited, ridiculously limited, fantastically expensive. My commute to work since being made redundant from my last job 3 years ago is now a 60 mile round trip. Nobody here has talked about the need for making employment availabilities more local, not that that is even possible where I live. I can't walk more than 400m, slowly, without serious pain that leaves me unable to go further.

Again, this is why I don't think cars should be banned completely. There are places/situations/individuals they were well. If we get the numbers down by significant amounts it frees up roads/spaces for those left with no other reasonable option. Everyone wins.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Utterly ignoring the rapid march towards electric vehicles. Of course once everyone is gliding around in them the hand wringing liberals who never managed to get it together to join the adult car owning population will still moan like fuck.

Electric cars solve fuck all.