Electric scooters

[teuchter]

I'm not sure because there's a problem with pedal-bikes you ignore the problem with e-scooters?

I'm not saying we should ignore it. I'm saying we ought to be able to use the same methods we use to deal with pedal bikes, to deal with e-scooters. It will never be possible to 100% prevent any cyclists or e-scooters from using the pavements, just like it will never be possible to 100% prevent car drivers from speeding or stopping on pedestrian crossings or parking on the pavement or leaving their engines idling or causing any number of other hazards.

Most of the arguments being used against e-scooters seem to be very similar ones that are used by those people who want all cyclists to have number-plates/licenses/insurance. The answer to those arguments is generally that these kind of measures would create far more disbenefits than benefits.

The reason that a different level of control needs to be exercised against bicycles than is exercised against cars and other motor vehicles is tied up with the fact that it's much less likely for a cyclist to cause serious injury to others than it is for a motorist. That's partly down to physics and partly down to the chances of the cyclist themselves being injured in any such incident, which has a significant influence on their behaviour. I don't really see any reason for a substantially different approach to be applied to e-scooters (subject to them having appropriate weight and speed limits built in).

 

[Hollis]

The answer - as ever - is to make the roads safer for cyclists and by extension scooters. The only reason people ride on pavements is because they’re scared of being killed by drivers. That’s it. This isn’t rocket science.

Well yes - completely - the whole thing needs a complete redesign. But when do you realistically think that's going to happen?

In the meantime what safety measures that are possible need to be put in place.

Also I don't think it is the 'only reason' - there's also people just not riding responsbily - e.g. guy last night - coming around a corner, on the pavement, in the dark, dark clothing, no lights - no attempt to slow down.

 

[teuchter]

Worst example I've seen was a suited and booted bloke with a satchel slung over his shoulder, headphones on, riding one on a dark street in traffic. He had no lights and very little awareness of those around him.

From a pedestrian point of view, he presents much less of a hazard to me than the car driver with his lights on but doing 40mph in a 20mph zone. And if he wasn't allowed to use a scooter, maybe he would be that driver.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm not saying we should ignore it. I'm saying we ought to be able to use the same methods we use to deal with pedal bikes, to deal with e-scooters. It will never be possible to 100% prevent any cyclists or e-scooters from using the pavements, just like it will never be possible to 100% prevent car drivers from speeding or stopping on pedestrian crossings or parking on the pavement or leaving their engines idling or causing any number of other hazards.

Most of the arguments being used against e-scooters seem to be very similar ones that are used by those people who want all cyclists to have number-plates/licenses/insurance. The answer to those arguments is generally that these kind of measures would create far more disbenefits than benefits.

The reason that a different level of control needs to be exercised against bicycles than is exercised against cars and other motor vehicles is tied up with the fact that it's much less likely for a cyclist to cause serious injury to others than it is for a motorist. That's partly down to physics and partly down to the chances of the cyclist themselves being injured in any such incident, which has a significant influence on their behaviour. I don't really see any reason for a substantially different approach to be applied to e-scooters (subject to them having appropriate weight and speed limits built in).

There is no reasonable argument as to why all road users shouldn't be insured.

 

[dessiato]

The small wheeled scooters seem popular here. They’re ridden with the same reckless abandon with which people cycle.

What has been discussed is that, the larger ones especially, should be regulated the same way as the AM licensed petrol ones are. In my opinion it is a good move. It would require the scooters to have licence plates, the rider would have to be 16+, they’d be insured, and they’d have a licence to permit them to ride it. Although having seen how dangerously these 50cc scooters are ridden I doubt they’d be ridden more safely, but there’d be recourse to action against the rider, and more protection for the other road users.

 

[Teaboy]

The local council has just launched a hire scheme for electric scooters. Will be interesting to see how they go as we don't have the santander bikes as we're too far out of London. The dockless bike stuff was a fiasco.

They're not for me but they seem like a decent idea. I don't mind them on the pavements except whizzing through a busy town centre. Then again there will always be that fuckwit regardless of the mode of transport.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

There is no reasonable argument as to why all road users shouldn't be insured.

Apart from all the reasons why it’s not done now.

 

[Hollis]

I don't mind them on the pavements except whizzing through a busy town centre. Then again there will always be that fuckwit regardless of the mode of transport.

Except if you're old, got kids, got sight issues...

 

[Teaboy]

Except if you're old, got kids, got sight issues...

Yes, that's why I specifically said town centres. Bikes on empty pavements don't cause that much of an issue so why should e-scooters?

 

[Hollis]

It's not just town centres where people walk on pavements.

 

[BigTom]

There is no reasonable argument as to why all road users shouldn't be insured.

Have you insured yourself for when you go for a walk down the road?
Is it even possible to get liability insurance as a pedestrian?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Apart from all the reasons why it’s not done now.

It soon will be the case, and not before time. Cyclists have been getting away with shit for far too long.

Have you insured yourself for when you go for a walk down the road?
Is it even possible to get liability insurance as a pedestrian?

Pretty sure I said road users. Yup, that's what I said.

 

[xenon]

I've not interacted with one yet, fortunately but the hire ones are allowed in Bristol. I very much do have a problem with them being on the pavement. Even left on the pavement they're a trip hazard. If you're on the pavement cos you're too scared to go in the road, tough, fucking walk.

 

[Hollis]

I'm not saying we should ignore it. I'm saying we ought to be able to use the same methods we use to deal with pedal bikes, to deal with e-scooters. It will never be possible to 100% prevent any cyclists or e-scooters from using the pavements, just like it will never be possible to 100% prevent car drivers from speeding or stopping on pedestrian crossings or parking on the pavement or leaving their engines idling or causing any number of other hazards.

But nobody yet has been able to say how you're actually going to reduce the amount of pavement use by escooters... what are these methods - other than massive long term redesign of urban transport..

It also shouldn't just come down to fatality statistics or serious injuries... There's also the case that pavements really should be a place free of vehicles where people can enjoy walking without having to worry about avoiding vehicles

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It soon will be the case, and not before time. Cyclists have been getting away with shit for far too long.

It really won't. Even this rabid right wing shitheap of a government has said so. If you want to see what will soon be the case, look at cities like Paris. Thats your future.

 

[xenon]

But nobody yet has been able to say how you're actually going to reduce the amount of pavement use by escooters... what are these methods - other than massive long term redesign of urban transport..

It also shouldn't just come down to fatality statistics or serious injuries... There's also the case that pavements really should be a place free of vehicles where people can enjoy walking without having to worry about avoiding vehicles

Yep. The idea that it's OK for Escooters to be on pavements, if they're not busy is rubbish too. What if someone wants to go for a walk on a particular route because they know the pavements are quiet, generally free of clutter. They've then got to look out for selfish tosspots who want to ride their vehicles on them.

No.

 

[Saul Goodman]

It really won't. Even this rabid right wing shitheap of a government has said so. If you want to see what will soon be the case, look at cities like Paris. Thats your future.

Mark my words. Free pedestrian terrorising days are numbered.

 

[teuchter]

But nobody yet has been able to say how you're actually going to reduce the amount of pavement use by escooters... what are these methods - other than massive long term redesign of urban transport..

You make it clearly verboten, just like it is for bicycles, and you occasionally fine people for it.

At present anyone on a scooter is liable to be fined or even have it confiscated, whether they are on the road or on the pavement. Make it legal on the road and there's a strong incentive for people to stay there instead of pavements.

Maybe it varies from place to place, but here in south london the scooters are about a fair bit, and I mostly only really see people using them on the road anyway. I simply don't see loads of scooters on pavements. I think it is being over-hyped as a problem, perhaps in some cases by people who don't want them on the road either. I think on balance they are a very positive addition to people's transport choices.

 

[editor]

There is no reasonable argument as to why all road users shouldn't be insured.

There is no reasonable argument why cyclists should be forced to pay insurance. But we've done this argument many, many times.

 

[editor]

It soon will be the case, and not before time. Cyclists have been getting away with shit for far too long.

What 'shit' exactly?

 

[Hollis]

I really don't see the problem as being over-hyped: I can pretty much guarantee every time I leave the house I'll come across several escooter riders on pavements. I'd also say there's probably a far higher proportion of escooters riders, riding them on pavements than cyclists. Nor it is an irrational concern...

It's interesting how you say they're a positive addition to people's transport choices. Unfortunately when they're being ridden on pavements they're an unwelcome intrusion on what should be a safe place for people to walk.

 

[Saul Goodman]

What 'shit' exactly?

Riding like cunts and endangering people's lives.

 

[Saul Goodman]

There is no reasonable argument why cyclists should be forced to pay insurance. But we've done this argument many, many times.

Running into and damaging people's cars, then riding away like the damage they caused will pay for and fix itself.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

It soon will be the case, and not before time. Cyclists have been getting away with shit for far too long.

Oh do shut up.

 

[BigTom]

Pretty sure I said road users. Yup, that's what I said.

Pretty sure pedestrians use the road all the time. Yup, that's what they do.

So do you have insurance for when you walk down the road? After all, like you've said, there's no reasonable excuse not to.

Except if it's not available to buy. But lets assume it is - do you have insurance for when you walk down the road? Have you even looked into whether you can? If not, why not?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Running into and damaging people's cars, then riding away like the damage they caused will pay for and fix itself.

I wonder if there’s any actual statistics available for this most heinous of crimes. You’d think if it was as prevalent as you make out there would be.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Not going to bother quoting each individual irresponsible idiot, but this is the sort of attitude I'd expect from cyclists. It's why we can't have nice things.

 

[Saul Goodman]

 

[BigTom]

Not going to bother quoting each individual irresponsible idiot, but this is the sort of attitude I'd expect from cyclists. It's why we can't have nice things.

I take it you don't have pedestrian insurance then. What an irresponsible attitude you have towards other road users. I guess this is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I take it you don't have pedestrian insurance then. What an irresponsible attitude you have towards other road users. I guess this is why we can't have nice things.

Pedestrians aren't road-going vehicles.
HTH