Egypt anti-government protests grow

[Casually Red]

Other than resigning there was no measure he could have taken at that stage that the opposition would have welcomed. Earlier on there is much he could have done to avoid his demise, but his error with the constitution towards the end of last year was probably a point of no return as far as much of the opposition were concerned.


.

I feel it was his complete undoing . He was attempting to emulate Erdogan on the one hand....I have the percentage so fuck you all, youll have my Islamism and like it...but at the same time delegitimising the very constitution that legitimised him . He was the author of his and the MBs undoing in that regard .
He couldnt seriously demand the military or anyone else respect his position under a constitution he was plainly dismissive of as and when it suited. So he was in a position of electoral legitimacy on one hand but self created constitutional illegitimacy on the other. Add to that his neo liberal economic bullshit which did zero to improve the lives of ordinary egyptians, his determination to take away their few personal freedoms which ran contrary to his religious agenda, the internal political chaos that resulted from his refusal to engage with the sections of the population that didnt vote for him ...thats what put him in a very precarious and vulnerable position . He created and encouraged an atmosphere of intolerance , non compromise and unconstitutionality and ultimately fell foul of it himself . Hed also created a stamp of office which was very blunt and contemptuous on the issue of not having to talk or engage with any political figures outside of the MB sphere, so when faced with crisis nobody in the opposition even bothered engaging with him .

By pissing all over the constitution and the non MB population he personally created the scenario where he was , at least perceived to be, the Muslim Brotherhood president as opposed to the President of a nation . Which is presumably why nobody outside the MB seems to be that annoyed at his downfall.

 

[sihhi]

This article on the Guardian and all the comments underneath it made me mad: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/03/egypt-coup-ruinous-army

But you can't overthrow a democratically elected government! These people are naive and stupid!

"Egypt is a good example of the unspoken truth that every revolution is a road to nowhere. "

Fucking liberals

Remember the trinity:

1. The Russian revolution is a coup.

2. All coups are bad.

3. It is impossible for civil administrations to impose coups by themselves.

 

[Casually Red]

It is quite interesting to see that the closure of Islamist TV stations and arrests are being condemned. Because over the years and especially recently, I have noticed a tendency of many to almost completely ignore deaths of MB members. If MB people start shooting protesters we seem to hear about it much more than when, as apparently happened at times in recent days, armed protesters shoot them. I do not suggest that their political stance deserves any sympathy, but I do find this lop-sidedness to be a concern.

one reason im not all that concerned is down to Morsi and the MBs complete lack of concern at the recent disgraceful mob lynching of shia pilgrims, something that despite causing deep concern in the region he never even bothered mentioning in a presidential address on the internal state of egypt just a few days later . Which gave the distinct impression that this type of intolerant barbarism was something that didnt concern him and shouldnt concern egyptians . Or indeed anyone else. So its not just their political stance that makes me have no sympathy, its their tolerance and encouragement, if not active collusion in, sectarian massacres.

 

[sihhi]

It is quite interesting to see that the closure of Islamist TV stations and arrests are being condemned. Because over the years and especially recently, I have noticed a tendency of many to almost completely ignore deaths of MB members. If MB people start shooting protesters we seem to hear about it much more than when, as apparently happened at times in recent days, armed protesters shoot them. I do not suggest that their political stance deserves any sympathy, but I do find this lop-sidedness to be a concern.

Are you saying this because stations like Misr 25 routinely pump out anti-Shiite anti-Coptic lies and incitement that led to those recent attacks on Shiites?

The shooting of ordinary, unarmed MB supporters is something unnecessary. And pro-NDP ultras might well be responsible precisely to create polarisation.
However, when Morsi Brotherhood activists (the kind of people who do hunt down Muslim men who marry Copts) tried to raid by arms Cairo University to clear it as a centre of Tamarrod organisation, they should expect robust self-defence.

 

[sihhi]

Muslim Brotherhood routinely lie about violence and deaths eg Issam al Hadad saying Copts were responsible for 2 being killed by Islamists, then the protest at the funeral being crushed by police and then Islamists to open fire on the Copts.

 

[Casually Red]

Hamdeen Sabahi is still around but he wouldn't have wanted the military to put him on TV. He welcomed the military ultimatum, but I think would generally be opposed to any lengthened military coup or clampdown, he was very opposed to military reserving powers in the 2011 settlement.

Sabahi from six weeks ago:

"for example, we recall the anti-democratic Constitutional Declaration, and the casualties outside al-Ittihadiya palace. Such incidents naturally undermine Mursi’s legitimacy. Mursi has legal legitimacy, which is under criticism, but his political legitimacy collapsed with the Constitutional Declaration, and his moral legitimacy too when Egyptians lost their lives. In other words, he is ruling with debatable legal legitimacy, and inexistent political and moral legitimacy. But the issue is not only about legitimacy or otherwise. No matter how legitimate, a ruler who is unable to meet the demands of the people should also be resisted. The issue is therefore about how to accomplish that."

id pretty much agree with that one, he had to go . Morsi and the MB werent tackling anything that was fundamentally wrong in egyptian politics . If anything they were adding to the wrongs and a major obstacle to any progress. Thats not to say theyre going to be replaced with anything decent but at least one massive bollocks has been taken off the scene and whoever replaces him will disrespect the nations constitution at his peril.

 

[elbows]

Are you saying this because stations like Misr 25 routinely pump out anti-Shiite anti-Coptic lies and incitement that led to those recent attacks on Shiites?

No, but thanks for underlining my point by instantly turning MB deaths into another reason to complain about the MB.

Nothing in my post was supposed to be a defence of the MB or a denial of all the shit they do. I was just pointing out that MB deaths often pass without comment, regardless of the circumstances. I think I've even seen situations where we get a stat about the number of dead at some event, and it turns out that some of the dead were MB but this is skated over and all the deaths are treated as being of anti-MB people.

 

[sihhi]

No, but thanks for underlining my point by instantly turning MB deaths into another reason to complain about the MB.

What exactly is your point? Some MB get killed too - is that it?

 

[sihhi]

I think I've even seen situations where we get a stat about the number of dead at some event, and it turns out that some of the dead were MB but this is skated over and all the deaths are treated as being of anti-MB people.

What do you mean skated over? Where has this skating been happening so far?

 

[butchersapron]

Clued up people in Egypt are warning of the danger of falling into the trap of attacking low level brothers as the tops are both warning them is coming and hope are coming n order to firm up all possible group support.

https://twitter.com/OmarKamel/status/352712549852119040/photo/1

 

[elbows]

What exactly is your point? Some MB get killed too - is that it?

My point was clear enough, that MB deaths are often rather ignored. There are several reasons why I think this is worthy of at least one mention, including the possibility you raised that it could be pro-NDP doing it to stir things up. That claim at least deserves some scrutiny, and has implications that may be worth discussing sometimes, but the opportunity to do so is lost when MB deaths are not discussed properly.

The main problem with my point is that I should have made it before this week, its a bit late now and any MB deaths at this point clearly take place under a very different situation now that they are out of power. Thats why I found it interesting that arrests of MB TV people were being condemned though, a sudden interest in not seeing the MB treated too unfairly.

 

[sihhi]

Clued up people in Egypt are warning of the danger of falling into the trap of attacking low level brothers as the tops are both warning them is coming and hope are coming n order to firm up all possible group support.

https://twitter.com/OmarKamel/status/352712549852119040/photo/1

Of course they are right to point it out. But when it's the lower order/low level brothers that fire on you or charge at you, it's the low level that will be killed in street skirmishes. That's different from nationalist ultras saying 'Charge' against the crowd of MB supporters in the square close by, which is what the twitter is seeking to stop.

 

[elbows]

I wonder if I spoke too soon about there being less concern about a return of Mubarak regime elements this time around. The Guardian seem to be parping about the return of Shafiq already.

With Morsi gone, the old regime is back where they want to be, pulling the levers of power. It is now only a matter of time before the loser of the last presidential election, Ahmed Shafiq comes back from exile.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/04/egypt-throwing-ballot-box-window

However I suppose I should not be surprised as I spent some time last night pointing out why the situation now may be far more compatible with regime goals than it was in the immediate aftermath of Mubaraks removal. An excuse to crackdown on the MB, MB restored to bogeyman status, and a variety of opposition politicians who may well be more compliant now that they've been given a taste of how things are for them when defeated electorally.

 

[butchersapron]

Of course they are right to point it out. But when it's the lower order/low level brothers that fire on you or charge at you, it's the low level that will be killed in street skirmishes. That's different from nationalist ultras saying 'Charge' against the crowd of MB supporters in the square close by, which is what the twitter is seeking to stop.

He's on about both that and using ongoing anger to initiate vindictive attacks on individuals not responsible for anything, the naming of the beards in order to encourage others to attack them or lynch them.

 

[sihhi]

The main problem with my point is that I should have made it before this week, its a bit late now and any MB deaths at this point clearly take place under a very different situation now that they are out of power. Thats why I found it interesting that arrests of MB TV people were being condemned though, a sudden interest in not seeing the MB treated too unfairly.

The arrests in particular are being condemned because they might well happen under a form of military backed law now that the Morsi-appointed Prosecutor General (the guy who started the court case against Bassem Youssef) has been removed. It will be the thin end of the wedge. It was similar in Turkey after the postmodern coup of 1997 first Islamists were targetted then socialists.

 

[sihhi]

He's on about both that and using ongoing anger to initiate vindictive attacks on individuals not responsible for anything, the naming of the beards in order to encourage others to attack them or lynch them.

It's not impossible I suppose and it's a new era of history there weren't innocent ihvans being lynched in rural Egypt after the Gemaa and their terror attacks.

 

[sihhi]

In order to note as elbows suggests. Health Ministry has announced there were 11 killed and 512 injured from clashes yesterday - both pro-Morsi and anti-Morsi.

 

[elbows]

So Mansour has been sworn in, the people in Tahrir have been treated to the Egyptian version of the red arrows, and talk of MB arrests continues:

According the judicial and army sources who have spoken to Reuters, the Egyptian prosecutor's office has issued arrest warrants for Muslim Brotherhood leader Mohamed Badie and his deputy Khairat el-Shater.

 

[elbows]

I wonder if Qatar wants its $8 billion back. Not to mention the credibility of Al Jazeera that now looks to have been squandered for nout.

 

[frogwoman]

Bollocks.

 

[sihhi]

I wonder if Qatar wants its $8 billion back. Not to mention the credibility of Al Jazeera that now looks to have been squandered for nout.

Something on Al Jazeera here:
http://nvonews.com/2013/07/04/qatar-saudi-arabia-in-tv-screen-war-over-egypt-coup

from Lebanon's Daily Star international edition.

Apparently its Egyptian channel was uncritically pro-Mursi throughout the Presidency even during the new constitution crisis, but after the size of the June 30 protests it was calling for dialogue and togetherness perhaps sensing the military would come good on its ultimatum.

 

[1%er]

Some things that may be worth looking out for:

How quickly the cuts in food and fuel subsidy that are demanded by the IMF are now put into place
How the MB and others are excluded from the electoral process (even CNN and the BBC are saying that the MB have the support of about a third of the vote in Egypt)
How the USA and other governments spin this so it isn't called a coup, as if it is classed as a coup they will have to stop all financial aid by law.

If anyone thinks this is a good thing for the poor and workingclass of Egypt, think again. It is them who will have to suffer the real cost when these price of food and fuel go up by around 40%.

The USA has given the Egyptian military billions since the 70's as payment for a nonaggression pact against Israel and the vast majority of senior Egyptian military offices have spent time training in the USA.

The MB in Egypt renounced violence back in the 1970, so it will be interesting to see how much violence is now blamed on the MB to discredit them.

The reason that so many people voted for the MB and other Islamist is because it was them who provided healthcare, education and other services to the poor and working class during the Mubarak era.

Let us all hope that Egypt doesn't turn into another Algeria from the 70, 80 and 90.

 

[sihhi]

No one here thinks the coup is good news. No one thinks the essential demands of the Tamarod base - for an end to unemployment and unrestricted political freedoms - will be met by the military regime.

However, the US will do what it can to the bend the regime to meet its interests not by increasing aid, but by threatening to review it to keep it in line.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-orders-us-review-aid-egypt-230407887.html

There were no such problems for the US after Morsi's constitution coup last November. Morsi's behaviour coincided with US interests, so much so that the Ambassador to Egypt a couple of weeks ago called on people not to protest in the streets with Tamarrod but wait for the next parliament elections (in a strongly Presidential system).

The reason that so many people voted for the MB and other Islamist is because it was them who provided healthcare, education and other services to the poor and working class during the Mubarak era.

How long does this kind of stuff have to be repeated after the events of the past year?
The Brotherhood became wealthy under Sadat and Mubarak, devoted their journals to demands for shariah-based ethics-law and warning of Soviet and provocator plots, and provided faith based charity to one section of the poor with their ill-gotten wealth.

 

[Casually Red]

The arrests in particular are being condemned because they might well happen under a form of military backed law now that the Morsi-appointed Prosecutor General (the guy who started the court case against Bassem Youssef) has been removed. It will be the thin end of the wedge. It was similar in Turkey after the postmodern coup of 1997 first Islamists were targetted then socialists.

but in turkey there actually was a socialist bloc, i dont think they pose any threat to any interests in Egypt.
And while id emphasise im not a fan of the corrupt egyptian military the fact is the MB have just seen their elected president removed from office after 90 years of trying to assume power and facing all sorts of hardships and persecutions despite a hefty electoral majority. Its unlikely thats going to go down well or that theyll just shrug their shoulders and await new elections. Furthermore if theyve actively subverted the constitution while in office then those leadership figures responsible for that have been behaving in a criminal manner and deserve arresting and being held to account .
Their tv station has been actively fomenting murderous sectarian aggression against national minorities and quite a few innocent people have died, some quite horribly, as a result. It makes perfect sense to take them off the scene while egypts in such a tinderbox situation . If not for good if thats all theyve got to offer the egyptian people. They should be held accountable for that hatemongering and in my view dont deserve the responsibility of running a media outlet in any society thats aiming for dignity and civilisation, or even basic rule of law. At the end of the day its not lib dems that are being picked up here . If the MB arent disrupted sufficiently they could well spark a civil war . They might still do it regardless.

 

[sihhi]

The MB in Egypt renounced violence back in the 1970, so it will be interesting to see how much violence is now blamed on the MB to discredit them.

They renounced violence and condemned the "violence" by people of the 1977 anti-IMF popular explosion, to gain a special position within the opposition to Sadat, from whose regime MB engineers, landowners and contractors secured their prizes.

 

[sihhi]

but in turkey there actually was a socialist bloc, i dont think they pose any threat to any interests in Egypt.

The bloc itself was very small posing no threat, but there were popular protests like the recent Gezi demonstrations - pots, pans, street actions against the government.
They weren't allowed to continue, 'provocators' were blamed and the army urged action against said 'provocators' on the grounds of 'stopping war between citizens' ie invented possible reprisals against supporters of the old Refah-backed government.

 

[Casually Red]

The MB in Egypt renounced violence back in the 1970, so it will be interesting to see how much violence is now blamed on the MB to discredit them.

.

in fairness though they renounced it as a political tactic to use against Sadat and Mubarak to assume power in egypt. That doesnt mean for an instant they became pacifists . Simply that they didnt believe the tactic was applicable in those particular circumstances and counter productive to their interests in those circumstances.
I also think it likely as the state and military will prove too formidable a foe they could well end up fucussing their ire on the same national minorities theyve spent the last year targetting and scapegoating .

 

[1%er]

I am no fan of Islamist or any other religious groups I don't believe that religion should play any part in democratic politics [other than on a personal level], I am also no fan of the sham that is called democracy around the globe.

I am a fan of watching the sophistry from politicians who claim to be democrats, trying to defend the indefensible. I am also a fan of watching the media manipulation of events.

Happily, I don't have a dog in this fight but I am concerned for the poor and workingclass who will end up taking the brunt of the pain.

 

[sihhi]

The working-class have been taking the brunt for the past two years as the Brotherhood wheeler-dealed with the army and acceded to IMF demands.
I agree the military takeover won't help with the situation but it's important to record the reality clearly in our minds as the Islamist movement gathers pace again for its traditional 'we are the real victims in the world' charade.

Tamarud is calling for protests tomorrow to 'insist on gains' and a civil constitution. We'll see I suppose.

 

[1%er]

The working-class have been taking the brunt for the past two years as the Brotherhood wheeler-dealed with the army and acceded to IMF demands.

Tamarud is calling for protests tomorrow to 'insist on gains' and a civil constitution. We'll see I suppose.

It has been a lot longer than two years that the workingclass has suffered and I believe one of the reasons for the coup is to speed up the IMFs grasp on the country which will extend outside influence on any Egyptian government to a far greater extent.

To trigger the release of the IMF money they need to cut food subsidies and fuel subsidies and soon after start privatization, public tendering for public services and all the other bullshit the IMF always impose as conditions of loans. It will be the poor and unskilled workingclass that will suffer most from the unemployment and increased cost.

If they dare to rise up they will get a very different response from the forces of the state. As you say time will tell but it doesn't look good right now.