Egypt anti-government protests grow
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of a 50-60% turnout. Not of the egyptian people.
MB got 47% other Islamist got 25%
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That was the presidential elections.
Ole
Well-Known Member
Morsi got 51.7%, Shafik got 48.3%.
I don't know where you could have got those numbers from. In the first round of the presidential elections Morsi got 24.8% and the other Islamist got 17.5% - 42.3% combined. In the parliamentary elections the Democratic Alliance got 37.5% and the Islamist bloc got 27.8%.
MB got 47% other Islamist got 25%
I don't know where you could have got those numbers from. In the first round of the presidential elections Morsi got 24.8% and the other Islamist got 17.5% - 42.3% combined. In the parliamentary elections the Democratic Alliance got 37.5% and the Islamist bloc got 27.8%.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
I'm not sure that your account reflects reality.
1 A tiny minority of regular police joined anti-Morsi rallies, it was a mass popular movement above 20 million (my initial suspicion about it being as high as that was wrong) in those circumstances in a police force were purges and resignations were taking place, not having some police join would be surprising.
2 The army basically stayed with Mubarak right until the last moment it could, any longer and it would have been irreparably damaged amongst a wide section of people and/or social chaos could have spiralled into more dangerous anti-elitist forms.
3 Had the Army unilaterally attempted to protect MB offices it would have been accused of harassing MB people, so it didn't get involved.
4 The police did withdraw because they weren't - in Cairo at least - willing to risk their lives to defend MB offices/symbols against tens of thousands of angry protestors, many hundreds with Molotov cocktails and sticks ready to take the offence very angry at MB snipers firing into anti-Morsi crowds a day before.
5 There are always contingencies for coups they exist in all sorts of scenarios. A contingency was activated, Mursi could have gone into conciliation with the mainstream of the petition and Tahrir opposition that would have been best outcome (from the army POV). Once the army is "directly" involved in politics - all kinds of extra questioning and are they corrupt? where do the generals and officers invest? are they getting kickbacks from all this? are they american puppets? are they traitors in collusion with ethiopia will start to emerge.
audiotech
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Under law, 'US aid automatically cut off when a coup takes place' has just been announced by a US spokesman. $1.4 Billion in this case. Aljazeera and other TV channels taken off the air in Egypt, not just MB channel. Washington warning its citizens to defer travelling to Egypt and those there to leave.
Poo Flakes
Active Member
Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has sent a message of congratulations to Egypt's new caretaker president, saying his appointment comes at a "critical" time in the nation's history. It is the first message of congratulations by an Arab leader to Adly Mansour - Saudi Press Agency
1%er
Well-Known Member
The irony
Ole
Well-Known Member
Your post specifically said "72% of Egyptian people voted for the Islamist parties", which implied you were referring to the actual popular vote (I missed the link).
Poo Flakes
Active Member
1%er
Well-Known Member
of those who voted, as was pointed out above.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
About 72% of the Egyptian people voted for Islamist party's in the elections for parliament.
It is interesting to see, so called, political commentators ignoring this 72% and only claiming that the President doesn't have a real mandate, "he only won because the opposition was split"
When you listen to these wankers, close your eyes and imagine they are talking about the governments of the UK or the USA and you'll see just how "undemocratic" they sound
The bastardization of democracy.
Odd post. Are you claiming Morsi does have a mandate as President on the basis of symbolic elections dominated by a military regime running the country at the end of 2011?
Even in those symbolic elections the Democratic Alliance that featured the Brotherhood scored a total of 10,138,134 votes - at least twice as many have been on the streets against his constitution and policies.
audiotech
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sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Different to what someone who left Alexandria in the 1990s told me a week ago, but I suppose there is truth in its bluntness:
Notions of class have nowhere in Egypt’s history (save for short spells in the 1890s and 1920s-30s) asserted themselves over political, cultural or socio-religious considerations. It is difficult to speak of a workers’ party when we cannot speak of any more than 700,000 to a million Egyptians who identify with this notion at the most basic level.
Notions of class have nowhere in Egypt’s history (save for short spells in the 1890s and 1920s-30s) asserted themselves over political, cultural or socio-religious considerations. It is difficult to speak of a workers’ party when we cannot speak of any more than 700,000 to a million Egyptians who identify with this notion at the most basic level.
1%er
Well-Known Member
No, not at all.
I saying that it is interesting that most commentators I have seem from the UK and the USA seem to be saying that "Morsi only won because the opposition were split"
and they seem to be ignoring that 72% of people who voted, voted for Islamist party's in the parliamentary election.
Poo Flakes
Active Member
Actually 1%er is right. It does look like the second phase of the elections brough around 70% of the vote for the two islamist parties.
Problem is, we have the number of ballots cast and that 20 million figure sounds like you have made it up.
By all means criticise the muslim brotherhood and advocate their overthrow or whatever, but at least acknowledge their popularity and how unlikely it is that the Egyptian military are implementing a grassroots coup.
Considering they did not approve of women or non-muslims as presidents, the voters probably had an idea of the kinds of things they were in favour of.
Problem is, we have the number of ballots cast and that 20 million figure sounds like you have made it up.
By all means criticise the muslim brotherhood and advocate their overthrow or whatever, but at least acknowledge their popularity and how unlikely it is that the Egyptian military are implementing a grassroots coup.
Considering they did not approve of women or non-muslims as presidents, the voters probably had an idea of the kinds of things they were in favour of.
elbows
Well-Known Member
It was not an attempt to describe the full reality, just a series of thoughts brought about by your suggestions about how wary the military would be about squishing the MB.
It was a very big movement, though there is nothing that enables me to buy into the 20+ million figure.
Mostly agree, though they could probably have done a bit more to back him up at some points. The idea of Mubaraks son taking over was not too popular in some military circles but their stance is also likely to be heavily influenced by what the US wants considering the amount of military funding that comes from the US.
I dont agree with this point at all. There were all sorts of state elements that were not exactly overjoyed about having a MB president and I'm pretty sure the military could have done more to protect the MB if they wanted to.
Well its not the first time they have withdrawn, with both the lack of reform and ineffectiveness of this security force having been an outstanding feature for years now. And their actions or inactions usually spawn a lot of theories. So I cannot really take their actions this time as concrete proof of anything. But coupled with the last point I still think the Egyptian state, usually via the military, has been quite capable of protecting locations when it really wants to.
It is certainly true that they did not seem to enjoy the period when they were overtly in control without any political cover. But they acted pretty quickly this time, I think a variety of agendas came into play and they made the most of this opportunity. It is not clear to me whether any concessions from Morsi would have been enough to prevent these events even if he had been inclined to make them, especially as the one thing the opposition parties and protest movements have been consistently good at is refusing to compromise. It is interesting to see the likes of ElBaradei dealing productively with the military this time, when in the past he held out against any attempts they made to co-opt him into the process.
Anyway we will just have to wait and see what happens, I'm not making any firm predictions. At a minimum I have to wait and see not just how the MB react and how much the military and state go after them, but also whether the military make use of this situation, under the banner of an appeal for unity, to crack down against other aspects of a broader struggle that has made Egypt so ungovernable since Mubarak.
teqniq
DisMembered
A lot of people will have voted for them in an effort to keep Shafiq out; widely regarded as felool (remnants of the old regime). Subsequently a vote for the MB does not constitute a ringing endorsement but the best of a bad deal.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
No, not at all.
I saying that it is interesting that most commentators I have seem from the UK and the USA seem to be saying that "Morsi only won because the opposition were split"
Morsi won the Presidential Election
I haven't seen most commentators saying that - can you back up your claim.
There was a wide array of anti-Islamist candidates in the first round - Hamdeen Sabahi, Amr Moussa aswell as about a dozen others (but not El Baradei) - allowing a Mubarak-tainted figure like Ahmed Shafik to end up as the second place non-Islamist figure for the run off instead of a better anti-Brotherhood unity figure. Of course many did not vote for Shafik or Morsi, whereas Moussa vs Morsi could have been a Moussa victory. But yes it's not the main story of why Morsi won the Presidential Election.
1%er
Well-Known Member
I'm watching BBC world and CNN that is where I am getting the comments about Morsi.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
The 20 million figure comes from the fact that 22,134,460 signatures were collected by Tamarrod even though it had as a goal 15 million at the start. Plus aerial shots of respective crowds. Some pro-Morsi were claiming 4 million, but a map which I can't find had their respective areas and the anti-Morsi crowds cover well over five times the area of the Morsi crowds.
Acknowledge their popularity? Has anyone denied they are popular with their base alone?
Of course it's not a grassroots coup the general has been on the television how on earth can you think it's an officer coup?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well traditional wisdom would be that arab nationalism is certainly one of the forces that could be tapped into to bring something resembling unity to Egypt. And at almost every turn we've seen how many sides can start cheering the military even when the military agenda actually makes it absurd to do so.
However the whole arab nationalism thing has some obvious limitations given how hollow it really is, since any real radical policies born of such roots would be quite at odds with what the US and other 'partners' actually want from Egypt. Not to mention the incompatibility of left-leaning neo-nasserists economic policy with the prevailing global economic ideologies of today. So we have ElBaradei on stage rather than someone like Sabahi.
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