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Precisely. Just as there is a difference between taking the piss out of some far right dolts for being dicks, and dismissing the concerns of a large swathe of people without engaging with these concerns whilst labeling them all 'thick chavs' etc.

We have all been round the block on this so many times on so many threads PT.

Lots of that 'large swathe' don't like migration and have a negative fixed image of islam that you or I are unlikely to change. In our communties and work places, we might, with luck, shift a couple of them an iota. Rather like the cuts issue, the background is complex and opaque. Complex and opaque just doesnt work for some people, regardless of their intelligence or class. I would never call someone a 'thick chav' or use a term of offence related to class. But if someone is a thick racist I don't see the point of going all wooly liberal and self censorious about saying so. What amuses me is that so many of the 'English Defence League' have utterly dire use of the language. They wibble about 'our culture' - one of the best things about England is the language, and they butcher it hourly with shit spelling, syntax, grammar and general incoherence. They are a rabble and a disgrace. Period.
 
We should do that though. If we're to have any hope of progressing further.

one bit of research I saw tracked how opinions changed markedly in a 2 month period a bit under a year ago, due to shifts in emphasis in the line of debate and a lot of media propaganda. But facts like that wont wash. If you suggest that media has an effect, it implies people believe what they read and hear from the establishment. And that is an insulting and arrogant. Or something.

Same with the systematic hate campaigns against islam and the swathes who parrot the lies of the Daily Star et al. Self appointed U75 experts have again deemed that age old Divide and Conquer tactics cant actually work or be meaningfully referred to. Again it's just too insulting to think that people believe what they are told, and evidence be damned.

In these circs I have no idea why anyone hires PR firms.
 
We have all been round the block on this so many times on so many threads PT.

Lots of that 'large swathe' don't like migration and have a negative fixed image of islam that you or I are unlikely to change. In our communties and work places, we might, with luck, shift a couple of them an iota. Rather like the cuts issue, the background is complex and opaque. Complex and opaque just doesnt work for some people, regardless of their intelligence or class.

Growth of the far right is down to the crisis in working class political representation. And yeah we have done this again and again. People's fears over immigration are largely born of the pressure on jobs, homes and services, and the reality that their own economic positions are being forced down, with some drawing the conclusion this is because of immigration, rather than both being symptoms of the race to the bottom. A conclusion arrived a partly because much of the left and the af's fail to place growing racism within the context of the race to the bottom, and present immigration as a wholly good thing without reference to, for example, the role the bosses have played in using migrant labour (and contract labour, temp labour, outsourcing, etc) to attack pay and conditions.

I would never call someone a 'thick chav' or use a term of offence related to class. But if someone is a thick racist I don't see the point of going all wooly liberal and self censorious about saying so. What amuses me is that so many of the 'English Defence League' have utterly dire use of the language. They wibble about 'our culture' - one of the best things about England is the language, and they butcher it hourly with shit spelling, syntax, grammar and general incoherence. They are a rabble and a disgrace. Period.

Nobody is saying that. If someone says 'pakis should die' then they are a cunt and should be called a cunt. But what we see instead is a whole swathe of people being lumped in together and with their concerns dismissed instead of engaged with, and this polarises the situation further, leading people who have arrived at the conclusion that the lack of jobs or the long waiting list at the NHS dentist is down to too much immigration to the hard or far right as 'the only people who are listening to us'.

Look at how shit far right results have been in the handful of wards and areas in the UK where the pro-working class far left is strong - it isn't because the far left is taking on the attitudes or policies of the far right; it is because there is a political force in these communities engaging with those that establishment politics have left behind. And this is on a local level, with an inevitably rapidly changing population, with people moving in and out, meaning it is difficult for smaller parties to maintain a strong local profile - at a national level, the presence of a mass pro-working class alternative would strangle the electoral and social weight of the far right and force a shift in the mainstream political consensus, putting working class issues back on the agenda. We have seen this to a degree with the anti-cuts debate - and the strength of opposition to the cuts, with signs of a developing mass movement - but without an organised political body its impact is limited.

It's not about treating bigotry with kid gloves and it certainly isn't a or the liberal position - the liberal position is precisely the sneering anti-working class establishment anti-fascism position. What it is about is taking a pro-working class and, at the risk of sounding like a twat, dialectical approach, and recognising that there are social causes for the growth of the far right, that it doesn't take place in the abstract.

On a practical and personal level, this means a different approach for different people. Some outright neo-nazi knob or diehard racist, fuck them, mock away, but a middle-aged woman who tells you she voted BNP because 'there was nobody else' or some young lad who expresses some degree of support for the EDL because 'at least they are doing something' are the direct product of the lack of a working class political voice. And lumping them all in together as one thick stupid underclass hateful mob isn't going to do much to engage with them - it is going to isolate them further and, as the crisis in representation continues, further entrench views and push them towards the far right.

Morality is a bourgeois concept and all that. It's about what will and will not achieve the desired result.

And you are right, this has been done to death.
 
We have all been round the block on this so many times on so many threads PT.

Lots of that 'large swathe' don't like migration and have a negative fixed image of islam that you or I are unlikely to change. In our communties and work places, we might, with luck, shift a couple of them an iota. .

Out of interest what is your positive, flexible image of Islam ?

You see the reason I ask is that Islam is, in many ways, a very rigid belief system. Its not some cuddly, all encompassing fussy spiritual belief that welcomes everybody and embraces others of all faiths and beliefs.

Its rules on aposty for example are very very clear. Ditto with its attitude towards homsosexuality and all sorts of other bits and pieces.

Now I personally can seem some positive aspects to it as a religion and have friends who are both observant Muslims and perfectly at home within UK culture but the reality is that they share far more common ground on all sorts of issues with a Conservative Catholic such as myself than they ever would with somebody who would define themselves as being of the left.

For certain parts of the British left to 'champion' the Islamic cause makes no sense beyond, and I accept that its a view shaped by my own political beliefs, a case of blatent short termism on the case of both sides.
 
Good post PT. it's also worth saying - not sure if a similar point's been made on here before - that a similar process has applied in some places re: people on benefits and a perception that because wages are so low that people on benefits are getting "more" than people who are actually working, something that's helped both mainstream parties and the far right. Currently my dad is in wales and sharing a house with a woman who's become a stalwart tory voter because of these reasons.
 
Out of interest what is your positive, flexible image of Islam ?

You see the reason I ask is that Islam is, in many ways, a very rigid belief system. Its not some cuddly, all encompassing fussy spiritual belief that welcomes everybody and embraces others of all faiths and beliefs.

Its rules on aposty for example are very very clear. Ditto with its attitude towards homsosexuality and all sorts of other bits and pieces.

Now I personally can seem some positive aspects to it as a religion and have friends who are both observant Muslims and perfectly at home within UK culture but the reality is that they share far more common ground on all sorts of issues with a Conservative Catholic such as myself than they ever would with somebody who would define themselves as being of the left.

For certain parts of the British left to 'champion' the Islamic cause makes no sense beyond, and I accept that its a view shaped by my own political beliefs, a case of blatent short termism on the case of both sides.

I don't know how rigid it is to say 'there is no compulsion in relgion', but I happen to agree with The Prophet on that one.

My problems with 'orthodox' Islam parallel my problems with other orthodox presentations of religion. They are generally human conceptualisations borne of ego. I can only speak of the many muslims I have had theological conversations with, although we have often disagreed I have not found them to be rude, fundementalist or inflexible.

I heard a great talk the other night by a bloke who pupports that much of the stasis in Islam goes back to the behaviour of the Uk early on last century across the ME and NA. The recent revolutionary movements speak to a large amount of such populations who reject autocracy, but for whom fundementalism also appears to play little part in their lives. They are, shock horror, normal people.

As for anyone who would kill in the name of one of the monotheist relgions: They are blasphemers. The law of Moses says 'thou shalt not kill', which about covers it. Allah is the all merciful. Anyone who aspires to be like him or his prohpet won't be killing any time soon. That also happens to be why there is a clear instruction for 'food without blood' in Islam - i.e vegetarianism for which halal killing is a blasphemous blag. The Prophet says, in the Haadith, that one should not make ones stomach a graveyard of animals.

Islam is indeed a religion of peace. An MI5 report out this week said that 'extremists' tended not to have much schooling in Islam. There will always be hate filled loons of all faiths and none.

I do not hold with theocracy, that is a sticking point because Islam seems to be theocracy inclined. But the idea of muslims wanting to force us all into Sharia is just not borne out by my experience of living in an area which aint short of muslims.
 
Its a religon of submission. There is a massive difference.

oh purlease...you cant seriously think anyone on here/anywhere is going to take your views/ interpretation of Islam as carriying a single iota of weight/ authority ? It's apparent that you're a bitter, reactionary, ignorant piece of work, but you can't be that deluded surely ?
 
As for anyone who would kill in the name of one of the monotheist relgions: They are blasphemers. The law of Moses says 'thou shalt not kill', which about covers it. Allah is the all merciful. Anyone who aspires to be like him or his prohpet won't be killing any time soon. That also happens to be why there is a clear instruction for 'food without blood' in Islam - i.e vegetarianism for which halal killing is a blasphemous blag. The Prophet says, in the Haadith, that one should not make ones stomach a graveyard of animals.

It's clear that you find yourself increasingly drawn to Mecca but i think you need to brush up as to where and when classical Islamic doctrine legitimises all sort of killing before you go much further.
 
oh purlease...you cant seriously think anyone on here/anywhere is going to take your views/ interpretation of Islam as carriying a single iota of weight/ authority ? It's apparent that you're a bitter, reactionary, ignorant piece of work, but you can't be that deluded surely ?

To be fair, I doubt very many people do take me seriously.

But that still dont alter the very simple fact that Islam might be very many things but its not a religion of 'peace'.
 
Its a religon of submission. There is a massive difference.

'submission' like so many totemic words in religion, can be taken in a number of ways. In fact all Masters could be argued to require a degree of submission to their ways of doing things. When Jesus said 'sell all you have and give to the poor, come and follow me' he was basically requiring a form of submission. When Buddhists 'go for refuge' they are basically submitting to what their Master requires.
 
It's clear that you find yourself increasingly drawn to Mecca but i think you need to brush up as to where and when classical Islamic doctrine legitimises all sort of killing before you go much further.

I am indeed drawn to higher things Butchers, though I reject organised human made religion (ie 'classical') in favour of trying to sift out wheat from chaff in the huge amount of spiritual writings of previous millenia. Anyone who would kill in the name of a supposedly merciful loving god who instructs 'thou shalt not kill' is clearly not going to get far in a logic competition.
 
Excellent, at one fell swoop you cast out not only all meat eaters, but also any Muslims who take the historic traditions of their faith seriously. Truly you are etc. Where did old Allah say thou shalt not kill btw?
 
Excellent, at one fell swoop you cast out not only all meat eaters, but also any Muslims who take the historic traditions of their faith seriously. Truly you are etc. Where did old Allah say thou shalt not kill btw?

Everyone's relationship with 'god' is unique. There is nothing I've said here that I haven't politely discussed with Muslims, Christians, Athiests etc.

It is not for me to cast out anybody, but the vegetarian aspects of spiritual traditions are strong and it is no suprise.

Allah, being arabic for 'god' and pupportedly the same entity as the God of the jews and christians, instructs to 'not kill' via Moses in the Book of Exodus. Commandment 6.
 
Everyone's relationship with 'god' is unique. There is nothing I've said here that I haven't politely discussed with Muslims, Christians, Athiests etc.

It is not for me to cast out anybody, but the vegetarian aspects of spiritual traditions are strong and it is no suprise.

Allah, being arabic for 'god' and pupportedly the same entity as the God of the jews and christians, instructs to 'not kill' via Moses in the Book of Exodus. Commandment 6.

I rather think Allah supersedes Moses when he legitmises and in fact instructs Muslims to kill (note, i'm not for a second saying muslims believe or follow this shit).

edit: actually, forget it, sorry for OT stuff.
 
though similar shit can be found in all religions to be honest. lot's daughters, etc



it always makes me laugh when people say such and such is a religion of peace and if you don't believe that it is peaceful you're not a "true" muslim/jew/christian etc - yeah, there are good messages in all religions, but some equally bad stuff in all of them, and who's to say that say a Christian Identity believer isn't as passionate and committed about their faith as someone who believes in some liberal version of christianity?
 
Everyone's relationship with 'god' is unique. There is nothing I've said here that I haven't politely discussed with Muslims, Christians, Athiests etc.

It is not for me to cast out anybody, but the vegetarian aspects of spiritual traditions are strong and it is no suprise.

Allah, being arabic for 'god' and pupportedly the same entity as the God of the jews and christians, instructs to 'not kill' via Moses in the Book of Exodus. Commandment 6.

that's not true though, if god didn't want people to eat meat then why didn't he just say so instead of creating elaborate food laws etc?
 
Allah, being arabic for 'god' and pupportedly the same entity as the God of the jews and christians, instructs to 'not kill' via Moses in the Book of Exodus. Commandment 6.

Oh, for goodness sake, the Mosaic prohibition of murder is not at all the same thing as opposition to all killing of people, let alone prohibition of all killing of animals.

As for Old Mo... he was a bloody warrior!




The craven Islamophilia on u75 (and in other haunts of supposedly left-wing little echo boxes of Establishment cant) is stomach-churningly disgusting, but you, Taff, seem a little different. You go a bit further. You are a sincere God-bothering Islamophile. May Allah reward your piety, you poor deluded mug.
 
Oh, for goodness sake, the Mosaic prohibition of murder is not at all the same thing as opposition to all killing of people, let alone prohibition of all killing of animals.

As for Old Mo... he was a bloody warrior!




The craven Islamophilia on u75 (and in other haunts of supposedly left-wing little echo boxes of Establishment cant) is stomach-churningly disgusting, but you, Taff, seem a little different. You go a bit further. You are a sincere God-bothering Islamophile. May Allah reward your piety, you poor deluded mug.

I certainly aint an islamophile. There at least as many things I criticise in orthodox presentations of Islam as in Christianity or Judaism. Of the well known world religion the closet which represents where I am at is Buddhism.
 
Proper Tidy - just wanted to say I go along with all you say in the last posts quoting me. Of course it doesn't do to just denounce 'thick racists' without an understanding and discussion of all sorts of circumstances in which these phenomena arise. But there can be assumption here and elsewhere that unless one repeatedly cites and discusses those issues one is just denouncing 'thick racists' and little else. It's an unfair assumption.
 
How do you know? Why assume that bad / illogical stuff comes from people and not god?

fwiw i do believe in god, but i'm not entirely convinced he is completely good ...

If god is logical and good then s/he is not going to be a source of bad / illogical stuff. Humans have a far more obvious track record, along with a track record for misrepresenting stuff. Whether 'god' is completely good is another matter entirely. Certainly the Bible seems to describe a pretty 2 faced 'god' - the Koran version being closer on the whole (IMO) to the standard OT model.

It is not inconceivable that there are different concepts of 'god' or entities being talked about. I was weirded out from a young age at 'god's' use of the term 'we' in the OT, something echoed in the Koran. Then there is all that Ancient Astronaut stuff that will have Butchers eyes bulging as soon as I mention it.
 
'he' didnt create the food laws. They are far more of human origin.

This. A lot of the food laws in religions were perfectly sensible health advice for the time and environment they originated in. Clerics of most religions having historically also fulfilled the role of teacher, I guess it's not surprising that domestic advice and religion got bound up together.
 
Britain back as British
That's what we're marching for,
We don't want to cause no trouble
Just don't want Muslamic Law.
 
I certainly aint an islamophile. There at least as many things I criticise in orthodox presentations of Islam as in Christianity or Judaism. Of the well known world religion the closet which represents where I am at is Buddhism.

I hate the liberals who make apologies for Islam's vile. Don't mean to sound like Tommy Robinson but I have had to deal with a lot of shit to do with Islam and south asian culture. I on the other hand ain't joined the EDL because I know they are a bunch of scapegoating, racist scum who have their own agenda(to whip up racial hatred and tensions). But let us not bury our heads in the sand and say 'let them do what they like to their people because we have to respect their traditions' etc. Fuck the apologists.
 
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