The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
A point that has been made on here time and time again only for the anarchisty types to avoid the question of building a political alternative
EDL watch
- Thread starter Das Uberdog
- Start date
A point that has been made on here time and time again only for the anarchisty types to avoid the question of building a political alternative
Weren't anarchists in AFA? DAM were right?
jakethesnake
In bed for Britain
Anarchists understand that to stop fascism we need to claim the streets and this means physical resistance. This then allows a fascist free space for people to develop their own alternative (in my opinion). I am an atheist but i can stand side by side with Christians and Muslims to resist fascism. I can do this because i discount all dogma. In the same way i can stand alongside trots, liberals, members of the peoples front of judea to fight fascism because as an anarchist all dogma is equally suspect but freedom is not. Fascism is anti-freedom, therefore i am anti-fascist. You can believe what you want.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
DAM were right about what?
That DAM were in the AFA. Sorry the way I wrote my earlier comment twas was confusing.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Actually this was the AFA position ( which although it allowed anarchists to join wasn't anarchist led) What followed some time later was an analysis about why this 'gap or vacuum' hadn't been filled.Seeing as there are no streets to be claimed as the BNP don't march or contest them it might be worth re thinking your position through.
jakethesnake
In bed for Britain
I'm always re-considering my position on these things. You have a point... However, an anti-fascist movement that buys into a wider political view point is, by definition, going to alienate supporters, eg, 'we are socialist and atheist' will alienate non-political religious types. A successful anti-racist movement needs to take all of the community with it. It needs respectable types to carry out the sort of action we had in Exeter (non-violent, children getting face painted etc) and knarly anarchos, bitter & twisted trots and so on to physically protect this.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
The idea that you can effectively fight the far right without offering a political alternative is bollocks. People turn to the far right because they are disaffected by mainstream politics and mainstream parties and feel marginalised in society. All the diversity celebrations in the fucking world won't fix that. That's fine for mobilising those already opposed to the far right, it's going to do sweet fuck all to engage with those who are or could be won over to the far right.
One of the most common answers ime when people are asked why they vote(d) BNP isn't directly to do with race - it's usually 'because they listen to us' or equivalent. It's not true, the BNP are ineffective local campaigners with a shit record when elected, it's a perception, and it's one born of feeling that the main parties don't represent them. It's about class at root, and it's the absence of a mass pro-working class political alternative - not even necessarily electoral, although that would help - that gives the far right room to develop. Even when people say 'there are too many immigrants' or whatever, it's socio-economic - a perception that outsiders enjoy greater social mobility, that outsiders are less marginalised socially than they are, that political correctness/multiculturalism or vote collecting by mainstream parties gives them greater representation and influence than they enjoy. 'They are taking our jobs and council houses' = there are not enough jobs or council houses, at root - it's just the wrong conclusion. The racism is often the conclusion they've arrived at for their disillusionment, not the catalyst for it.
People spend a bit too much time focussing on the far right and not enough on why they exist imo.
I'm not having a go at anybody, mobilising those already opposed to the far right serves a purpose, it can reassure those feeling victimised by the presence of an active far right in that area, give confidence to those engaged in anti-racism/anti-fascism, and knocks the confidence of far-right activists, but it's just fire-fighting, it's never going to offer a solution. And all too often, because of a lack of understanding of what feeds the far right, it actually entrenches support for the far right, for lots of reasons - because the anti-racist side becomes a platform for mainstream politicians, or because so called antifascists come out with crap about 'council estate scum' or chavs or laziness, and everybody studiously ignores the underlying issues. It responds to what are essentially class issues with gloating middle class reaction, and these people fucking damage us enormously. It puts 'anti-fascism' on the same level as the mainstream political parties - 'at least the far right listen to us'.
One of the most common answers ime when people are asked why they vote(d) BNP isn't directly to do with race - it's usually 'because they listen to us' or equivalent. It's not true, the BNP are ineffective local campaigners with a shit record when elected, it's a perception, and it's one born of feeling that the main parties don't represent them. It's about class at root, and it's the absence of a mass pro-working class political alternative - not even necessarily electoral, although that would help - that gives the far right room to develop. Even when people say 'there are too many immigrants' or whatever, it's socio-economic - a perception that outsiders enjoy greater social mobility, that outsiders are less marginalised socially than they are, that political correctness/multiculturalism or vote collecting by mainstream parties gives them greater representation and influence than they enjoy. 'They are taking our jobs and council houses' = there are not enough jobs or council houses, at root - it's just the wrong conclusion. The racism is often the conclusion they've arrived at for their disillusionment, not the catalyst for it.
People spend a bit too much time focussing on the far right and not enough on why they exist imo.
I'm not having a go at anybody, mobilising those already opposed to the far right serves a purpose, it can reassure those feeling victimised by the presence of an active far right in that area, give confidence to those engaged in anti-racism/anti-fascism, and knocks the confidence of far-right activists, but it's just fire-fighting, it's never going to offer a solution. And all too often, because of a lack of understanding of what feeds the far right, it actually entrenches support for the far right, for lots of reasons - because the anti-racist side becomes a platform for mainstream politicians, or because so called antifascists come out with crap about 'council estate scum' or chavs or laziness, and everybody studiously ignores the underlying issues. It responds to what are essentially class issues with gloating middle class reaction, and these people fucking damage us enormously. It puts 'anti-fascism' on the same level as the mainstream political parties - 'at least the far right listen to us'.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Political alternatives normally do have 'respectable types' .How do you think the BNP does so well for example. But being 'respectable' doesn't mean that you have to be soft politically .
real political alternatives to the BNP and to the parties that create the conditions in which the BNP thrives are not going to be based on either ' we are socialist and atheists' nor will they be based 'knarly anarchos, bitter & twisted trots '. One of the problems with some that support anti fascism is that they promote a lifestyle/identity politics type ghetto that puts normal working class people off politics.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
well said
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Well, Well, well, we have got to page 30 of the EDL watch thread and the posts are now suddenly taking a very nice turn towards the coherent and analitical. In fact there are more realistic points raised here on one page than there is in the entire UAF manifesto.
I have a couple of dodgy questions to pose here. Firstly, Is there anything about the EDL that would justify AFA type tactics to be used against them? My feeling is that maybe not as they are a far cry from the murderous gangs fielded in the past but I could be wrong. I get the impression they are nothing compared with what the extreme right would like to have on the street.
Also, why is it that, as an anti-fascist myself, the image the UAF has makes my stomach turn?
I have a couple of dodgy questions to pose here. Firstly, Is there anything about the EDL that would justify AFA type tactics to be used against them? My feeling is that maybe not as they are a far cry from the murderous gangs fielded in the past but I could be wrong. I get the impression they are nothing compared with what the extreme right would like to have on the street.
Also, why is it that, as an anti-fascist myself, the image the UAF has makes my stomach turn?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
because david cameron and other tory MPs were among its founding members maybe?
http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/
http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
it's been suggested to me, and i think there's some merit to it, that the EDL have more immediate potential to turn into something resembling a slightly less institutionalised 'Orange Order' than the next brownshirts.
dunno what folks think to that.
dunno what folks think to that.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The fuck with all this suggested to me and i'm told, my sources. They're all wrong each fucking week.
An Orange order? Come back in 400 years and we'll tell you you were wrong. Do you know what the OO is?
An Orange order? Come back in 400 years and we'll tell you you were wrong. Do you know what the OO is?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
got fuck all to do with 'sources' knobhead, this is just a theory that's been noted
jakethesnake
In bed for Britain
Yes, no argument there from me. The opportunity to connect the dots wasn't lost on Saturday in Exeter. The resistance is building and the EDL (bless em) acted as a catalyst.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well i've now mentioned your 'sources' and laughed at your suggestion. It's politically, historically and all fucking ways inept. I hope your 'source' (i.e i'll post any old shit my mate on a bus OMG the EDL have killed everyone in manchester!!) isn't the same one doing the 'suggestions'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who has noted this theory?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
you pissed again?
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
it's come up in conversations with friends, is what i mean. i didn't want to claim it as my own observation 'cos it's not - and despite the self-aggrandizing image of me you've weaved into your pyschopathic little tapestry of 'profiles' for all the urban75 contributors, i am genuinely not here to impress the shattered, depressive remnants of the fucking left
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, the edl are the new OO with their history, their w/c roots. Their direct connection with thousands of militants, their access to weapons, and their votes.
That's what they are.
That's what they are.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
alright, so you don't reckon so. cheers for participating, as always
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It says more about the idiocies that you and your mates start with then. There's a real world out there - analyse that.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
if you bothered to delve into the context of what i was saying, you'd realise that actually the comparison wasn't about 'bigging up' the threat of the EDL. it was actually about providing a cultural cross-narrative linking the EDL structurally and in terms of its activities less with 'fascism' and brownshirts (as some pretty commonplace observations suggest) and more with parades and conservative 'community event' style gatherings, etc. a conservative cult of national myths for a disenfranchised population.
it was actively not linking the EDL today with the threat of Loyalist style paramilitaries.
it was actively not linking the EDL today with the threat of Loyalist style paramilitaries.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why did you just invent the 'bigging up' quote?
And it wasn't. If it was it would have laughed at itself. Now off you go sonny.
And it wasn't. If it was it would have laughed at itself. Now off you go sonny.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Seems to be an even more real world out there that YOU cannot accept exists.
As if everything needs to be approved by you LOL.
Don't talk about there being a "real world out there" butchersapron, I doubt you even have an up to date passport.
I'm more inclined to hear what Das Uberdog has to say than rely on your blinkered agendas.
If you really did have the answers you wouldn't be here on urban75 and you know it.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
you're cracked, as if i would care enough about it to lie to you!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What myths do these existing conservative cults rely on? What history? There's something there to build on. There is not with the edl. Easy as it is for you think, as a swp member, of the w/c as easily led by bright colours and loud sounds where is the evidence? You edl watchers sit on youtube all day. Let's have it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Similar threads
