Dullest Film Ever

[Pickman's model]

We're just going into semantics here, which fuck knows is the most beloved of Urban diversions.

If you must know, Amnesty put the number of deaths caused by the US alone at 20-30 million since WWII. There are also wars going on that - I was going to say do not involve the US, but I expect they had a spoon in the pot for most of them - but other wars, which have been going on all over the world, the toll is much higher.

see my post 538

 

[Spymaster]

Worldmapper: The world as you've never seen it before

perhaps an apology to Epona in order. took all of a moment to google - war deaths since 1945

Of course no apology is necessary. I was asking for a source, not saying he's wrong.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course no apology is necessary. I was asking for a source, not saying he's wrong.

i've given you a source and as you'd know if you'd been paying attention since 2001 Epona is a woman.

 

[Reno]

For fuck sake, stop trying to pretend that either one of has has a better statistic than the other. You can't get beyond 20 million and that's OK because it's not 50 million? I am not playing fucking war dead top trumps. You think 20 million dead is like some reasonable number???? I mean if it's off season that must be OK I guess. Or FFS THIS IS INSANE! ly 20 million -20 million dead! If it's 20 million that's Ok then. Because it could have been worse? There's something very wrong with the world we live in.

Earlier you complained that otheres "treated you horribly" for disagreeing with you in a manner that was quite civil. Please a look at your own posts own and how you come across and maybe calm down a little.

What is this endless discussion which started with you missing the point of prologue of 2001 still doing here anyway ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Steven Pinker has written about this and done some number-crunching, based on the likelihood of a man to die a violent death at the hands of another man. Using that measure, he plots a steady decline up to the present day.

Be interesting to see figures for non-combatant deaths, but given that many empires didn't pay soldiers in the past, giving them official pillaging rights upon victory, I'd guess those have also been in decline over the longer term.

yeh but pinker's a plonker then because advances in medicine mean people can survive greater violence than in the auld days.

 

[Spymaster]

i've given you a source ...

Thank you. If Epona had, it would've saved you the bother.

 

[Epona]

I don't honestly understand how anyone can look at the world now and say we're less at war now than we were in prehistory (which is how this discussion started), I think anyone who believes that, looking around the world now at all the conflict, is actually fairly fucking batshit crazy. Either completely deluded about how the world is now, or how it was 10000 years ago.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thank you. If Epona had, it would've saved you the bother.

it was no bother

 

[Epona]

Tbh, if it was a statistic that I could find with no bother, and Pickman's could find with no bother (thanks for linking it btw if I forgot to do so), then, it's probably easily googlable for anyone before they start shouting their mouth off about statistics.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't honestly understand how anyone can look at the world now and say we're less at war now than we were in prehistory (which is how this discussion started), I think anyone who believes that, looking around the world now at all the conflict, is actually fairly fucking batshit crazy. Either completely deluded about how the world is now, or how it was 10000 years ago.

I still think you're wrong.

You're only getting away with the 50 million number because I allowed you to define "now" as "everything since 1945", which is a HUGE stretch. Combine that with the fact that I took 50m as the number of dead during WW2 and that's a conservative figure (other estimates between 60 and 85 million), and whichever way you cut it up your summation is wrong.

And once again, you are the only person looking to make comparisons with pre-history. Nobody else has mentioned it.

 

[Epona]

You didn't "allow me" to do anything, you're a revisionist and at least do me the courtesy of saying you flat out disagree with me! "I allowed you to" my fucking arse.

 

[Spymaster]

You didn't "allow me" to do anything, you're a revisionist and at least do me the courtesy of saying you flat out disagree with me! "I allowed you to" my fucking arse.

I've said that I flat out disagree with you several times and there's no revisionism going on here. What we do have is you shifting goalposts and gerrymandering with time periods to achieve the result that you're after!

First you wanted to bang on about pre-history which was never mentioned by anyone else, then you wouldn't define the period under discussion. After much teeth pulling it seemed that you wanted to go with 1945-2000 so I played along and you came up with 50 million, which is still probably 10 to 30 million shy of the number killed in WW2.

So we're no further on are we?

 

[Epona]

No, what we have is you partially admitting to it, then saying you "allowed me" Good luck with "allowing me". Sounds like fun, might get a bit of mileage out of this. Fuck knows I've been pulled up enough times for using the wrong word or turn of phrase.

 

[DotCommunist]

actually had someone on here claiming the stonehenge rocks could have been stolen and part of a cultural war etc. You don't get multi generational conflicts that could do that, transporting all those stones from hither to thon without cooperation, before the whell ffs, would have been impossible without co operation between tribes. Work on that project would have been a lifelong achievement, and you might not have lived to see it done. Certainly the later netwok of religious? sites surrounding it do not suggest conflict. Yes cain raised a hand to able, and aren't these epic human dramas repeated every day and aren't our stories convinced by them and repeat them in diffireng forms endlessly?

I was thinking about that ice man, the docu I watched on his autopsy. Still had his shoes! a souljah noes what is most important. But he was shot in the back with arrows they recon, with a full belly. Suggests he was dined according to hospitality rules then tracked and shot [my theory]

but conflict between humans over resources is not natural, mutual aid is the more common solution. Even when that comes down to something as simple as cosying up for shared body heat. We are a social species, only the hardest hearts can see others go cold and hungry

The main problem is that certain classes have normalised their savagery and have retrospectively demanded that we all pay attention to the idea that man always wars with man. Its a lie. As much a lie as the idea that barter economy trading in prehistory is evidence of capitalism. A self serving framework imposed against evidence in order to justify a current mode of thinking. Epona has the right of it, if you want wars and 'human competition' to be the rule, show me your evidence? In the end its just a set of narrow social prejudices cast back to a time when humans AS A SPECIES learned how co operation was a massive advantage. How they could do projects like the damn henge. Self serving lies to re-write history in the mould of 'might has always been right' and yes that has prevailed sometimes but it has never been default mode, natural behaviour

 

[Buckaroo]

I don't honestly understand how anyone can look at the world now and say we're less at war now than we were in prehistory (which is how this discussion started), I think anyone who believes that, looking around the world now at all the conflict, is actually fairly fucking batshit crazy. Either completely deluded about how the world is now, or how it was 10000 years ago.

Don't think it's about being less at war but being less likely to die a violent death.

 

[Spymaster]

No, what we have is you partially admitting to it, then saying you "allowed me" Good luck with "allowing me".

Well now you're just waffling.

This all started with you calling bullshit on another poster over something that is very, very, far from being established as fact, and asserting your credentials as someone who knows more about this than most others because you're an archeologist. Or something. On examination you've come up short all round.

 

[Spymaster]

Don't think it's about being less at war but being less likely to die a violent death.

Well quite. Or at least suffer violence.

This goes back to my post #484.

 

[Epona]

Don't think it's about being less at war but being less likely to die a violent death.

Please explain to me how someone in say 300BC would be more likely to die a violent death than someone in 2016, or 1999 if we are splitting hairs. Oh the 300BC guy could be in the army, and he might get pierced with spear or sword. The same guy in 1999 might step on a landmine and have parts of them splatter all over, or I suppose being taken out in a hail of bullets may be what you would classify as neater and less violent I guess. Or could just be someone's wedding that gets missiled, or someone's kid who gets shot on the street.

At least the majority of participants in a battle in 300BC knew what they were there for.

 

[Spymaster]

Please explain to me how someone in say 300BC would be more likely to die a violent death than someone in 2016, or 1999 if we are splitting hairs.

Oh god, not again.

 

[Reno]

This is becoming the Dullest Thread Ever !

 

[Orang Utan]

I think the modern deaths by landmine or hail of bullets are possibly far less common than death by conflict was back in, say, the Iron Age.
There's billions of us now compared to then.

 

[Epona]

Oh god, not again.

Look, you have made a big effort to denigrate my posts, without actually saying anything. No-one is just going to accept you going "oh god not again", I think you've misjudged urbanites if that is what you are trying to go for.

You seem to be absolutely adamant that prehistoric times were somehow more brutal and filled with war than the modern era, and you're wrong. It's time to just drop it now.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the modern deaths by landmine or hail of bullets are possibly far less common than death by conflict was back in, say, the Iron Age.
There's billions of us now compared to then.

deaths by landmine less than common in iron age while i'm led to believe deaths by bullet more common then than generally supposed

 

[Spymaster]

You seem to be absolutely adamant that prehistoric times were somehow more brutal and filled with war than the modern era, and you're wrong.

Can you find and quote a post of mine to that effect?

You're just making things up and that's why this has all gone in circles.

 

[Epona]

I think the modern deaths by landmine or hail of bullets are possibly far less common than death by conflict was back in, say, the Iron Age.
There's billions of us now compared to then.

Incorrect, there is very little evidence of people dying by one anothers hand in the iron age. Most people were concerned with getting food to eat, and making tools. The biggest type of injury in any frequency is when societies move to agriculture, and you start to see injuries from people tripping and hurting their wrists (Colles fractures) - not wounds from war, or fighting- just from tripping on ploughed soil and landing with your hands out in front of you. Sorry if I burst anyone's "rawr, prehistoric man" bubble with that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Incorrect, there is very little evidence of people dying by one anothers hand in the iron age. Most people were concerned with getting food to eat, and making tools. The biggest type of injury in any frequency is when societies move to agriculture, and you start to see injuries from people tripping and hurting their wrists (Colles fractures) - not wounds from war, or fighting- just from tripping on ploughed soil and landing with your hands out in front of you. Sorry if I burst anyone's "rawr, prehistoric man" bubble with that.

weren't the romans iron age?

 

[Nanker Phelge]

What a palaver. All this death over millions of years and we still can not have a discussion about dull films without war breaking out.

 

[Orang Utan]

Incorrect, there is very little evidence of people dying by one anothers hand in the iron age. Most people were concerned with getting food to eat, and making tools. The biggest type of injury in any frequency is when societies move to agriculture, and you start to see injuries from people tripping and hurting their wrists (Colles fractures) - not wounds from war, or fighting- just from tripping on ploughed soil and landing with your hands out in front of you. Sorry if I burst anyone's "rawr, prehistoric man" bubble with that.

Full of yourself, aren't you?
Think of the numbers.

 

[Pickman's model]

not to mention the huns, goths, angles, saxons, warring states in china...

 

[Pickman's model]

Full of yourself, aren't you?
Think of the numbers.

yeh will no one think of the numbers?