Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Treacle Toes]

who or what even is this 'old left' anyway? apparently there's some significant movement of class struggle revolutionaries I've never heard of...

Tbh...I have been asking for a description on another thread and there hasn't been much in the way of response, and no I am not surprised by that. I asked because if other groups can be reduced to 'progressives/liberals/fake leftists etc' which I have seen happening in discussions around here I wanted to know how the real left could be described because it is certainly being imagined. I am genuinely interested by the way. The attempt at this discussion is in the Post-Trump Left thread.

 

[butchersapron]

I've never heard anyone say anything even approaching that nonsense in 25 years plus. I've lost count of the number of tendentious suggestions or smears by people opposed to class based politics claiming they have or its the common understanding of those who do have class based politics. I've seen the latter more times on here in the last week alone than I have ever the former on here or elsewhere. I've also seen the inverted parody of the mocked up picture on here and elsewhere many times this week: it's only race or, for those to scared to say openly what they mean, culture.

 

[andysays]

Do you think that piece by Owen Jones is addressing a problem that doesn't really exist ?

I certainly think it's telling that he cites those examples and apparently can't find any of those genuinely interested in/supportive of working class politics saying what he's claiming they're saying.

The problem as he describes it doesn't exist, IMO, unless you or anyone else can come up with some genuine examples to back it up.

 

[rekil]

Google's search prediction gave me this a while ago.

 

[inva]

Tbh...I have been asking for a description on another thread and there hasn't been much in the way of response, and no I am not surprised by that. I asked because if other groups can be reduced to 'progressives/liberals/fake leftists etc' which I have seen happening in discussions around here I wanted to know how the real left could be described because it is certainly being imagined. I am genuinely interested by the way. The attempt at this discussion is in the Post-Trump Left thread.

if the real left means the same as the old left then I don't what either is and I'm totally confused tbh

 

[bimble]

I've never heard anyone say anything even approaching that nonsense in 25 years plus. I've lost count of the number of tendentious suggestions or smears by people opposed to class based politics claiming they have or its the common understanding of those ago do have class based politics. I've seen the latter more times on here in the last week alone than I have ever the former on here or elsewhere. I've also seen the inverted parody of the mocked up picture on here and elsewhere many times this week: it's only race or, for those to scared to say openly what they mean, culture.

Does this mean that you think that when Rutita1 says she has encountered attitudes like this she's saying it because she is opposed to class based politics and/or wants to smear people?

 

[Orang Utan]

Does this mean that you think that when Rutita1 says she has encountered attitudes like this she's saying it because she is opposed to class based politics and/or wants to smear people?

this is sophistry.

 

[bimble]

why? Butchers seems to be saying the problem doesn't exist. I feel, as Rutita does, that there is a problem. Me and her might be wrong, like Owen Jones is wrong, but it seems counterproductive to respond by announcing that not only does the problem not exist it's actually being made up as a slur by the people who say they see a problem.
(but can't engage properly now so should have waited )

 

[Orang Utan]

why? Butchers seems to be saying the problem doesn't exist. I feel, as Rutita does, that there is a problem. Me and her might be wrong, like Owen Jones is wrong, but it seems counterproductive to respond by announcing that not only does the problem not exist it's actually being made up as a slur by the people who say they see a problem.
(but can't engage properly now so should have waited )

the phrasing of the question is dishonest. you do this a lot. putting words into people's mouths and asking them if they've said something different to what they've actually said.

 

[bimble]

ok. I really am not here to deceive or smear anyone.
He said

I've never heard anyone say anything even approaching that nonsense in 25 years plus. I've lost count of the number of tendentious suggestions or smears by people opposed to class based politics claiming they have or its the common understanding of those who do have class based politics. I've seen the latter more times on here in the last week alone than I have ever the former on here or elsewhere. I've also seen the inverted parody of the mocked up picture on here and elsewhere many times this week: it's only race or, for those to scared to say openly what they mean, culture.

I'm talking about the ''claiming they have' and the 'smears'. As if it is being done on purpose. That's what I think is counterproductive.

 

[andysays]

why? Butchers seems to be saying the problem doesn't exist. I feel, as Rutita does, that there is a problem. Me and her might be wrong, like Owen Jones is wrong, but it seems counterproductive to respond by announcing that not only does the problem not exist it's actually being made up as a slur by the people who say they see a problem.
(but can't engage properly now so should have waited )

What exactly is the problem that you (and Rutita1 if she chooses to answer) think exists?

Is it that some Wall Street Journal columnist, Theresa May and
columnist Melanie Phillips are saying something along the lines of "minorities aren't part of the working class", and if so how and why is that a problem?

Or is it that someone/anyone genuinely arguing in favour of working class politics is saying that minorities aren't part of the working class, and if so who and what, specifically, are they saying?

And why would you/she/anyone keep parroting this stuff without any genuine examples if not because, at worst, you are deliberately attempting to slur people or, at best, you are quite happy to repeat such slurs by the likes of Owen Jones without thinking carefully about what you're doing?

 

[krtek a houby]

Don’t be divided by Trump and Brexit: minorities are part of the working class | Owen Jones

I know people will argue that Jones isn't best placed to make this argument given his own class status/privilege but it this is certainly an attitude I have encountered.

Sod it; I don't give a shit about where Jones is coming from - this article makes sense. I'm not afraid to admit I agree with it.

 

[sealion]

ok. I really am not here to deceive or smear anyone.

 

[bimble]

What exactly is the problem that you (and Rutita1 if she chooses to answer) think exists?

Is it that some Wall Street Journal columnist, Theresa May and
columnist Melanie Phillips are saying something along the lines of "minorities aren't part of the working class", and if so how and why is that a problem?

Or is it that someone/anyone genuinely arguing in favour of working class politics is saying that minorities aren't part of the working class, and if so who and what, specifically, are they saying?

And why would you/she/anyone keep parroting this stuff without any genuine examples if not because, at worst, you are deliberately attempting to slur people or, at best, you are quite happy to repeat such slurs by the likes of Owen Jones without thinking carefully about what you're doing?

Nobody is saying minorities , or women, aren't part of the working class, of course not.
That's not what the Owen Jones article is about and it's silly to put it that way.
What I think I hear and what Jones is talking about, is people saying that the working class's struggle is not naturally aligned with say black lives matter, or feminism, that they are in fact somehow opposed and you have to choose.
This thing was said to me ages ago, and even if it wasn't meant at all seriously, and was actually about the words being interchangeable which if course they are not, it felt like someone saying you have to choose, be a feminist or be 'left'.


When Owen Jones says
"There are those who argue the left has abandoned class in favour of identity politics. There is certainly a type of liberal who has done this: who argues for solutions such as more women in corporate boardrooms rather than addressing systemic inequality. But socialists argue that class is absolutely central to understanding society’s ills, but cannot be understood without gender, race and sexual orientation" , is that something that everyone thinks is about right?
(I don't know what identity politics means anymore, have been told that i use the word wrong).

Why do you think Owen Jones wrote that thing in the Guardian? Is it that he's mistakenly imagining a problem where none exists or is he doing it on purpose for some nefarious reason?

 

[Pickman's model]

Nobody is saying minorities , or women, aren't part of the working class, of course not.
That's not what the Owen Jones article is about and it's silly to put it that way.
What I think I hear and what Jones is talking about, is people saying that the working class's struggle is not naturally aligned with say black lives matter, or feminism, that they are in fact somehow opposed and you have to choose.
This thing was said to me ages ago, and even if it wasn't meant at all seriously, and was actually about the words being interchangeable which if course they are not, it felt like someone saying you have to choose, be a feminist or be 'left'.

View attachment 95667
When Owen Jones says
"There are those who argue the left has abandoned class in favour of identity politics. There is certainly a type of liberal who has done this: who argues for solutions such as more women in corporate boardrooms rather than addressing systemic inequality. But socialists argue that class is absolutely central to understanding society’s ills, but cannot be understood without gender, race and sexual orientation" , is that something that everyone thinks is about right?
(I don't know what identity politics means anymore, have been told that i use the word wrong).

Why do you think Owen Jones wrote that thing in the Guardian? Is it that he's mistakenly imagining a problem where none exists or is he doing it on purpose for some nefarious reason?

you do like your crossthread beefs

 

[bimble]

you do like your crossthread beefs

So not the point.

On this thread, J Ed posted several times a stupid cartoon made by someone on Clinton's team, about the demise of white men. He was posting it to show how out of touch and up their own bums the campaign's 'extreme feminists' were. It was a stupid cartoon, but posting it repeatedly felt like he was saying, this is how Trump won, they had their eyes off the ball obsessing about feminism etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

So not the point.

Another example: On this thread, J Ed posted several times a stupid video made by someone on Clinton's team, about the demise of white men. He was posting it to show how out of touch and up their own bums the campaign's 'extreme feminists' were. It was a stupid video, but posting it repeatedly felt like he was saying, this is how Trump won, they had their eyes off the ball obsessing about feminism etc.

good. keep to examples from this thread.

 

[butchersapron]

So not the point.

On this thread, J Ed posted several times a stupid cartoon made by someone on Clinton's team, about the demise of white men. He was posting it to show how out of touch and up their own bums the campaign's 'extreme feminists' were. It was a stupid cartoon, but posting it repeatedly felt like he was saying, this is how Trump won, they had their eyes off the ball obsessing about feminism etc.

I do hope J Ed did actually say 'extreme feminists' and that you're not just doing what you normally do - making up stuff and forcing it down the throats of others posters. The only use of those terms on this thread seems to be from you.

 

[bimble]

He did not say it. He just kept posting the video. I am a horrible person who is here to make up lies about other posters and annoy everyone for a laugh, that's the important thing.

 

[Pickman's model]

He did not say it. He just kept posting the video. I am a horrible person who is here to make up lies about other posters and annoy everyone for a laugh, that's the important thing.

no one's laughing

 

[butchersapron]

He did not say it. He just kept posting the video. I am a horrible person who is here to make up lies about other posters and annoy everyone for a laugh, that's the important thing.

He didn't say it, yet after a series of posts by a number of posters pointing out that you repeatedly put words in other posters mouths you decide to put words in another posters mouth by literally inventing a quote and attributing it to them.

Stop wasting our time.

 

[andysays]

Nobody is saying minorities , or women, aren't part of the working class, of course not.
That's not what the Owen Jones article is about and it's silly to put it that way...

I haven't chosen that form of words by accident. The headline of that article says

Don't be divided by Trump and Brexit: minorities are part of the working class

That reads to me as if Jones is attempting to counter those (a
Wall Street Journal columnist, Theresa May and columnist Melanie Phillips are the examples he gives) who say that minorities are not part of the working class. It may not be a perfect summary of his article, but that does appear to be what it's about, in essence.

This is what he's claiming is being said

The real tormentors of the working class are not financial institutions that plunge their countries into economic calamity, the bosses who don’t pay their workers enough, or the tax avoiders (such as Trump). No: it is the champions of minorities and women who are supposedly on a collision course with the working class. The working class, apparently, consists only of straight white men: not women who want rights, not ethnic minorities, not migrants, not LGBT people.

but other than those who clearly don't have the interests of the working class in mind, I haven't heard or read anyone saying anything even approximating this.

If you or Rutita1 or anyone else have, then please enlighten the rest of us

 

[sealion]

and annoy everyone for a laugh,

No one is laughing. It is not funny but hey lets not turn this into another thread about Bimble (again).

 

[JimW]

He did not say it. He just kept posting the video...

Posted twice to my recall, was it actually more than that?

 

[Idris2002]

Can't be bothered looking for the Hilary thread, so here we go:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can't be bothered looking for the Hilary thread, so here we go:

Had to look her up. She's a New York Times opinion writer.

 

[rekil]

Can't be bothered looking for the Hilary thread, so here we go:

From a twitter link to an article she wrote

Hillary Clinton Is More Than a President - She is an idea, a world-historical heroine, light itself.

Hillary Clinton did everything right in this campaign, and she won more votes than her opponent did. She won. She cannot be faulted, criticized, or analyzed for even one more second. Instead, she will be decorated as an epochal heroine far too extraordinary to be contained by the mere White House. Let that revolting president-elect be Millard Fillmore or Herbert Hoover or whatever. Hillary is Athena.

Is this some sort of post-pomo pisstake? You could probably pitch "Hillary Clinton is like Tom Courtenay when he let his opponent win at the end of The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner - exactly like Tom Courtenay" at the G and they'd print it.

 

[Idris2002]

Had to look her up. She's a New York Times opinion writer.

OM fucking G.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

OM fucking G.

She's not wrong though. You've got to give her that. It definitely isn't the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 50th thing we remember about him.

 

[JimW]

From a twitter link to an article she wrote




Is this some sort of post-pomo pisstake? You could probably pitch "Hillary Clinton is like Tom Courtenay when he let his opponent win at the end of The Loneliness Of The Long Distance Runner - exactly like Tom Courtenay" at the G and they'd print it.

Can't be serious. Please.