Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Idris2002]

 

[butchersapron]

I don't read it entirely in those terms. I think the more subtle research is uncovering the complex overlap between the identarian mix and perceptions of the geo-political/economic power of the nation. Perhaps unwittingly, many Trump supporters appear to be reacting with a sort of grief for the era when the US was confident of its role as the undisputed hegemon. Not decoupling, but synthesizing?

I wasn't referring to that article really, i was just looking for an opening to post those figures - and in response to a quote that seemed to take a fall in unemployment as a simple fact with no further examination of its composition seemed pretty the best bet. In fact, opening that can of worms would have taken the author down the path that might have led to a more accurate recognition of the link between economics and culture that you suggest in your last line. My decoupling was in terms of commentators rather than voters btw.

 

[andysays]

Trumpublicans

 

[Idris2002]

I don't read it entirely in those terms. I think the more subtle research is uncovering the complex overlap between the identarian mix and perceptions of the geo-political/economic power of the nation. Perhaps unwittingly, many Trump supporters appear to be reacting with a sort of grief for the era when the US was confident of its role as the undisputed hegemon. Not decoupling, but synthesizing?

I don't think there's anything unwitting about it. White supremacy is not just for the home front. But good luck trying that one on the Chinese (a great bunch of lads).

 

[Pickman's model]

I wonder how many of those new jobs, the ones that have almost all gone to people with college degrees, have also gone to women, replacing jobs that were previously mostly men's .

yeh. i am not sure you quite grasp the concept of 'new jobs' as opposed to 'old jobs' in this context. as the quote in ba's post makes clear, these are NOT replacing old jobs. they are different jobs. they are not doing the same thing. these are not successor jobs, or replacement jobs, but utterly different jobs. not with the same employers, with different employers. not the same sector, a different sector. you want to compare apples and sea cucumbers. but they are not the same.

 

[Idris2002]

yeh. i am not sure you quite grasp the concept of 'new jobs' as opposed to 'old jobs' in this context. as the quote in ba's post makes clear, these are NOT replacing old jobs. they are different jobs. they are not doing the same thing. these are not successor jobs, or replacement jobs, but utterly different jobs. not with the same employers, with different employers. not the same sector, a different sector. you want to compare apples and sea cucumbers. but they are not the same.

Not jobs for the bog standard Trump voter with the bad back, the angry ex-wife, and lack of transferable skills (and the racism, let's not forget the racism).

 

[Pickman's model]

Not jobs for the bog standard Trump voter with the bad back, the angry ex-wife, and lack of transferable skills (and the racism, let's not forget the racism).

quite.

 

[brogdale]

yeh. i am not sure you quite grasp the concept of 'new jobs' as opposed to 'old jobs' in this context. as the quote in ba's post makes clear, these are NOT replacing old jobs. they are different jobs. they are not doing the same thing. these are not successor jobs, or replacement jobs, but utterly different jobs. not with the same employers, with different employers. not the same sector, a different sector. you want to compare apples and sea cucumbers. but they are not the same.

And, crucially, new pay rates &T&C. On that basis the right have harnessed resentment against their own (globalised) neoliberalism and channeled it into nostalgic desire for the days when nations did have de facto (economic) sovereignty. We want our country back...

 

[bimble]

yeh. i am not sure you quite grasp the concept of 'new jobs' as opposed to 'old jobs' in this context. as the quote in ba's post makes clear, these are NOT replacing old jobs. they are different jobs. they are not doing the same thing. these are not successor jobs, or replacement jobs, but utterly different jobs. not with the same employers, with different employers. not the same sector, a different sector. you want to compare apples and sea cucumbers. but they are not the same.

Um. No, I do understand that these new jobs are totally different jobs from the old jobs that were lost.
Seeing as they are almost all going to people with degrees it seems ok to ask how many of the new jobs (likely in the post-industrial sectors, like service industry instead of manufacturing etc) have gone to a higher ratio of women than did the old jobs that are gone.

 

[Pickman's model]

Um. No, I do understand that these new jobs are totally different jobs from the old jobs that were lost.
Seeing as they are almost all going to people with degrees it seems ok to ask how many of the new jobs (likely in the post-industrial sectors, like service industry instead of manufacturing etc) have gone to a higher ratio of women than did the old jobs that are gone.

you say that as though it might mean something, as though it might have some significance. which part of 'you are comparing apples and sea cucumbers' did you have difficulty with?

 

[Idris2002]

Christ almighty. If you ever think any of our fellow urbanites are daft numpties, have a read of this:

The 'White Working Class' Can Kiss My Brown Ass

A woman I've been friends with for twenty years posted this on shitebook. In fairness, she has good reasons for being more afraid than most (I'm not going to divulge those reasons though). But even so. . . I'm just going to leave this one.

 

[bimble]

you say that as though it might mean something, as though it might have some significance. which part of 'you are comparing apples and sea cucumbers' did you have difficulty with?

What ? I'm saying the difference between the apples and the sea cucumbers is a big difference - these new jobs are obviously going to different people than those who did the jobs that have gone. Maybe you think it's pointless to ponder how many of the new post-industrial jobs are going to women, I think it's an interesting factor, that connects up to the fact that Trumps biggest single group of supports was non college educated older men.

 

[Pickman's model]

What ? I'm saying the difference between the apple and the sea cucumber is a big difference - these new jobs are obviously going to different people than those who did the jobs that have gone. Maybe you think it's pointless to ponder how many of the new post-industrial jobs are going to women, I think it's an interesting factor, that connects up to the fact that Trumps biggest single group of supports was non college educated older men.

you ponder. and ponder. but why don't you try to find out anything? Data & Statistics

 

[bimble]

you ponder. and ponder. but why don't you try to find out anything? Data & Statistics

That's where I just was - and yes, if you look down the list it's unsurprising to find that women are likly to get more of the retail & service jobs that have presumably 'replaced' industry & manufacturing.
Employed persons by detailed industry, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

 

[Pickman's model]

That's where I just was - and yes, if you look down the list it's unsurprising to find that women are likly to get more of the retail & service jobs that have presumably 'replaced' industry & manufacturing.
Employed persons by detailed industry, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity

perhaps you could link to something which shows changes over time instead of a snapshot for one year

 

[camouflage]

I don't think there's anything unwitting about it. White supremacy is not just for the home front. But good luck trying that one on the Chinese (a great bunch of lads).

careful now.

 

[bimble]

perhaps you could link to something which shows changes over time instead of a snapshot for one year

Not what you ordered but this piece of writing from a few months ago shows the idiocy of thinking a jobs a job and all will be well:
The Economist celebrates the "Rust Best Revival" - how great it is that new 'knowledge based' businesses and high tech startups have moved in and taken over the cool closed factories, bringing with them fancy restaurants and coffee bars etc.

"Disused mills and warehouses, with their high ceilings and exposed bricks and beams, can make attractive homes and workspaces for knowledge workers. .. As Hillary Clinton put it, “America has never stopped being great.” Messrs Trump, Sanders et al should take note.."

http://www.economist.com/news/busin...some-americas-old-industrial-cities-rust-belt

 

[Idris2002]

careful now.

Down with this sort of thing.

 

[Yossarian]

America needs genuine class solidarity politics

That Sam Kriss piece is one of the best things I've seen since the election.

Clinton’s media foot-rubbers are presenting this result as a victory for prejudice: Trump won on a platform of racism, sexism, ableism, misogynoir, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia; the American people are hateful beyond reason, and they elected a knight of the kyriarchy to turn their roiling incoherent psychopathologies into government policy. Of course these people are right; it would be incredibly stupid to discount the role of outright bigotry, especially in a country that has fuelled itself on bigotry for three hundred years. But it’s not enough; if the only problem was too many bigots the whole elections collapses into a question of tribes and demographics, and you don’t have to think about why Clinton lost. Trump won among voters who ticked the box for Obama in 2008 and 2012, he won decisively among white women, he picked up a far bigger share of ethnic minority voters than anyone would have reasonably expected, he won because the standard formula of American liberalism – eternal war abroad coupled with rationally administered dispossession at home and an ethics centred on where people should be allowed to piss and shit – is a toxic and unlovable ideology, and his candidacy turned it from an invisible consensus to one option among others.

How you lost the world

 

[Pickman's model]

Not what you ordered but this piece of writing kind of shows the idiocy of thinking a jobs a job and all will be well:
The Economist celebrates the "Rust Best Revival" - how great it is that new 'knowledge based' businesses and high tech startups have moved in and taken over the cool closed factories, bringing with them fancy restaurants and coffee bars etc.

"Disused mills and warehouses, with their high ceilings and exposed bricks and beams, can make attractive homes and workspaces for knowledge workers. .. As Hillary Clinton put it, “America has never stopped being great.” Messrs Trump, Sanders et al should take note.."

http://www.economist.com/news/busin...some-americas-old-industrial-cities-rust-belt

i have never said or intimated 'a job's a job' or indeed that all would be well.

 

[Idris2002]

That Sam Kriss piece is one of the best things I've seen since the election.




How you lost the world

It's spot on. But if I shared it with my friend I mentioned up the thread - well, I don't have enough RL friends to risk losing any more of them to shitebook interactions.

 

[bimble]

i have never said or intimated 'a job's a job' or indeed that all would be well.

Didn't mean you, know you'd never say such a thing, meant The Economist and their quite spectacular wrongness in that cheery piece about the new jobs in trendy closed factories.

 

[CRI]

What the fuck are totalitarian proto-communist values and ways?

That's what they called it "back in my day" - well, communist and totalitarian. Proto? Hell, why not. Seriously, maybe you had to be there, actually growing up when and where I did, to understand the contrast between absolute hatred of everything Russian as the antithesis of everything America stood for, to now, with good old boys drooling over Putin's style and wanting some of that for America.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's what they called it "back in my day" - well, communist and totalitarian. Proto? Hell, why not. Seriously, maybe you had to be there, actually growing up when and where I did, to understand the contrast between absolute hatred of everything Russian as the antithesis of everything America stood for, to now, with good old boys drooling over Putin's style and wanting some of that for America.

more everything communist than everything russian. i am led to believe that nabakov, tolstoy and indeed dostoyevsky retained their popularity throughout the cold war

not to mention vodka and blinis

 

[CRI]

Surely a notable difference between Obama and Trump for example with regard actual power is that the house and senate are largely republican? Obama was blocked repeatedly.

Absolutely this. It will definitely be hard for some GOP legislators to swallow the fact Trump hardly embodies tea party-esque moral values in his own life and style. However, they're prepared to deal, and even lick his ass if it means they can cling onto power.

Fundamentalist Christians are praying he'll come to the Lord, any day now. The greater the sins, the more powerful the redemption, and they just love a redemption narrative. Failing that, if he gets chucked, dies, whatever, they've got Mike Pence in the top seat, so they can move ahead unencumbered with jailing women for abortions, withdrawing civil rights for gay folks, criminalising more Black folks, indoctrinating children, that sort of thing.

 

[CRI]

Christ almighty. If you ever think any of our fellow urbanites are daft numpties, have a read of this:

The 'White Working Class' Can Kiss My Brown Ass

A woman I've been friends with for twenty years posted this on shitebook. In fairness, she has good reasons for being more afraid than most (I'm not going to divulge those reasons though). But even so. . . I'm just going to leave this one.

The person who wrote the article is angry, and I think has reason to be. Totally understand why she, and presumably your friend, want to tell white working class people to do one. Hell, I'm white and working class and even I understand that.

Across all income and education levels, American voters preferred Trump. The poor ones will be shafted by his policies, but they chose loyalty to race over class. Similarly, like 53% of white women voted Trump compared with 43% for Clinton. Something like more than 80% of Black men and women backed Trump. White women chose loyalty to race over gender, despite his hateful misogyny and admissions of sexual assault.

If Black and Brown folks are pissed and feel let down by their white brothers and sisters, they've got every fucking right to be. They'll be first in the firing line and the white folks will barely give a shit.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Where does this ignorance come from?

That's a good question.

You say that the 72% 'Obama doubters' are racist. No doubt some - maybe a lot - are, but imo all are ignorant, either singly, or in combination with racist.[This also begs the question - is it possible to be a racist, but not also an ignorant person? Arguably, by definition, racists are ignorant]

My assumption is that you accept Obama's US birthplace.

In other words, you've looked into the matter a little, and arrived at the truth. You, a person living in the UK, were able to accomplish this.

So, how can we explain all those Americans who have been unable to arrive at the truth? In general, they have the ability to access any information available to you and to most people. Yet they failed to do so.

What is the explanation for millions of Americans who were unable to carry out a simple task that many other Americans, not to mention British people and Canadians, were able to do with relative ease?

 

[CRI]

more everything communist than everything russian. i am led to believe that nabakov, tolstoy and indeed dostoyevsky retained their popularity throughout the cold war

not to mention vodka and blinis

No honey, not where I come from. It was a dry county (no vodka), bland food and not much reading beyond the requisite reading for high school English class.

 

[J Ed]

What is the explanation for millions of Americans who were unable to carry out a simple task that many other Americans, not to mention British people and Canadians, were able to do with relative ease?

Perhaps we should just bomb them?

 

[Casually Red]

Decent enough article in my local paper

Patrick Murphy: Thatcher and Reagan are to blame for Trump and Brexit