Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Johnny Canuck3]

No one has disputed that contention, but we are still asking you to justify your original contention that Clinton's failure to win (in contrast to Obama's record of winning twice) is something to do with a failure of education.

My original comment on the issue was to quote Justice Souter's comments from 2012, which to me seemed prescient:

Prescient comment from Justice David Souter in 2012, about the destructive effects of civic ignorance on the functioning of democracy:

I don't believe there is any problem of American politics and American life, which is more significant today, than the pervasive civic ignorance of the Constitution of the United States and the structure of government. (This response earned Souter a round of applause)

We know, with pretty reliable evidence, that two-thirds of the people of the United States do not know that we have three separate branches of government. I remember...a survey back four or five years ago in which a substantial percentage of Americans believed that the Supreme Court ... was a committee of the Congress. It didn't used to be this bad.

Starting about 1970, the teaching of "Civics" went into decline from which it has never significantly recovered... The reason I said it is the most significant problem that we've got is that I think some of the aspects of current American government that people on both sides find frustrating are in part a function...of the inability of people to understand how government can and should function. It is a product of civic ignorance.
I don't worry about our losing a republican government in the United States because I'm afraid of a foreign invasion. I don't worry about it because of a coup by the military, as has happened in some other places. What I worry about is that when problems are not addressed people will not know who is responsible, and when the problems get bad enough - as they might do for example with another serious terrorist attack, as they might do with another financial meltdown - some one person will come forward and say: "Give me total power and I will solve this problem."

That is how the Roman republic fell. Augustus became emperor not because he arrested the Roman senate. He became emperor because he promised that he would solve problems that were not being solved.
America is veering towards dictatorship, Supreme court justices and top government officials warn

 

[J Ed]

You know, it's interesting. I don't think I've seen a single account of this election which attributes Trump's win exclusively to what liberals have now decided to deride mockingly as 'economic anxiety', which is what non-simplistic analyses are being caricatured as, but I've seen an awful lot of people who attribute it exclusively to racism.

 

[J Ed]

My original comment on the issue was to quote Justice Souter's comments from 2012, which to me seemed prescient:

If only they had watched more episodes of the West Wing

 

[andysays]

Clearly sometime between 2012 and 2016 the good people of Michigan stopped book learnin

And forgot everything they'd previously been taught, wallowing in their own ignorance.

This whole "poor/working class voted Trump because they're ignorant" is depressing similar to the argument that they're unemployed in new economic conditions where new jobs almost all require college degrees because they're ignorant - it's all down to the supposed individual failings of the poor/unemployed, rather than any deeper structural explanation

 

[J Ed]

And forgot everything they'd previously been taught, wallowing in their own ignorance.

This whole "poor/working class voted Trump because they're ignorant" is depressing similar to the argument that they're unemployed in new economic conditions where new jobs almost all require college degrees because they're ignorant - it's all down to the supposed individual failings of the poor/unemployed, rather than any deeper structural explanation

Yes, thank you. That exact comparison occurred to me as well.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You know, it's interesting. I don't think I've seen a single account of this election which attributes Trump's win exclusively to what liberals have now decided to deride mockingly as 'economic anxiety', which is what non-simplistic analyses are being caricatured as, but I've seen an awful lot of people who attribute it exclusively to racism.

In the US, rightist politicians commingle the two, and stoke economic anxiety by pandering to racism, as in 'foreign immigrants are stealing your jobs'.

And it would seem that there are people in the UK who hold similar beliefs.

 

[CRI]

Yes, most of us know about all of this, even if we haven't experienced it first hand.

But what it doesn't do is explain why Clinton lost whereas Obama won twice, as you seem to be claiming it does.

There are many white people in the US who find the fact there was Black man in the White House to be a source of deep national shame. But, there were enough African Americans and folks from other minority ethnic communities along with less bigoted white folks who turned up for him both times and got him elected.

Many of the same folks who find a Black man in the white house inherently wrong feel the same about a woman not belonging there. They didn't want to get fooled twice by a cuckoo in the nest. This time though, white women put loyalty to race above gender, so not enough votes.

Let's not forget all the stuff about voter suppression, leaked "intelligence," the FBI hating Clinton, all the other crap that made a relatively close election tip away from her.

The Obama haters had plenty of time to work on tactics so they wouldn't get duped again.

 

[gosub]

You know, it's interesting. I don't think I've seen a single account of this election which attributes Trump's win exclusively to what liberals have now decided to deride mockingly as 'economic anxiety', which is what non-simplistic analyses are being caricatured as, but I've seen an awful lot of people who attribute it exclusively to racism.

Exit polls had economy as reason to vote for over 50%. In a country where national debt is over 100% of GDP.

Also read something a while back, that a lot more kids post 2008 went down the higher education route, only to find that the laws of supply and demand meant it just raised the necessary qualifications for low end jobs, plus saddling them with large amounts of debt, which unlike other forms of debt in the US, they couldn't walk away from. Which was why Bernies free education struck a chord. (How that translated into Trump winning I don't know)

 

[J Ed]

There are many white people in the US who find the fact there was Black man in the White House to be a source of deep national shame. But, there were enough African Americans and folks from other minority ethnic communities along with less bigoted white folks who turned up for him both times and got him elected.

Some of those 'less bigoted white folks' voted for Trump.

Obama won the white vote in 2008 btw.

 

[killer b]

Perhaps, rather than being a question of education, Clinton was just a really bad candidate whose politics voters did not like.

I've been pondering this today - I think Clinton's camp was actually correct when they thought Trump would give them the best chance at the white house, I reckon the blander centrist candidates would have done even better than Trump.

While the ugly face of this election (and the post-match analysis) is racism and poor white voters, actually the biggest tactical error the Democrats made was to run Clinton at all. If she was going to run, Trump was the only candidate (ok, maybe Cruz too) who was revolting enough to turn enough voters off switching to Republican. He very nearly did it too.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If only they had watched more episodes of the West Wing

True: unfortunately, they were watching Fox News, instead.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Christ almighty. If you ever think any of our fellow urbanites are daft numpties, have a read of this:

The 'White Working Class' Can Kiss My Brown Ass

What other possible reason could there be for the tens of millions who voted against the candidate from Goldman Sachs but racism and sexism.

And if the white working class are to carry the can, and are politically and economically eviscerated as a result, what then of their black and brown working class counterparts?

Well, you know what?

Fuck them too.

This is the 21st century deal with it.

 

[CRI]

MSNBC didn't put this interview with Sarah Kendzior online, but someone found segments in an online archive and pieced it together. The interviewer is visibly uncomfortable with what she is saying. She's not been asked to appear in any US mainstream media since, not surprisingly. She explains the issues of race, class, economics and the media more succinctly here than I'm doing - and the fact that most politicians and the media just don't "get" the Midwest. They really just don't.

 

[CRI]

What other possible reason could there be for the tens of millions who voted against the candidate from Goldman Sachs but racism and sexism.

And if the white working class are to carry the can, and are politically and economically eviscerated as a result, what then of their black and brown working class counterparts?

Well, you know what?

Fuck them too.

This is the 21st century deal with it.

So, you genuinely think Donald Trump is a "man of the people" who really understands the plight of the white, working class? Okay then

 

[phillm]

Donald Trump versus Mexicans: brilliant short film

 

[SpineyNorman]

So, you genuinely think Donald Trump is a "man of the people" who really understands the plight of the white, working class? Okay then

Oh dear

 

[Casually Red]

There are many white people in the US who find the fact there was Black man in the White House to be a source of deep national shame. But, there were enough African Americans and folks from other minority ethnic communities along with less bigoted white folks who turned up for him both times and got him elected.

Many of the same folks who find a Black man in the white house inherently wrong feel the same about a woman not belonging there. They didn't want to get fooled twice by a cuckoo in the nest. This time though, white women put loyalty to race above gender, so not enough votes.

Let's not forget all the stuff about voter suppression, leaked "intelligence," the FBI hating Clinton, all the other crap that made a relatively close election tip away from her.

The Obama haters had plenty of time to work on tactics so they wouldn't get duped again.

You're leaving out the fact she was a massively shite candidate .

 

[seventh bullet]

That's what they called it "back in my day" - well, communist and totalitarian. Proto? Hell, why not. Seriously, maybe you had to be there, actually growing up when and where I did, to understand the contrast between absolute hatred of everything Russian as the antithesis of everything America stood for, to now, with good old boys drooling over Putin's style and wanting some of that for America.

I can understand your liberal western indoctrination re totalitarianism, but proto?

I have been to the country of the Enemy, many times. Putin's 'style' (whatever that is) isn't the above.

 

[J Ed]

A good but profoundly distressing conversation about prospects under a Trump presidency

Reckoning with a Trump Presidency and the Elite Democrats Who Helped Deliver It

 

[Treacle Toes]

And if the white working class are to carry the can, and are politically and economically eviscerated as a result, what then of their black and brown working class counterparts?

Well, you know what?

Fuck them too.

You say that as if that's a new attitude, like you just thought of it on the back of one article you don't like. Many people black/brown/white, have never known anything else. And if they manage to forget for a moment, it's never long before they are reminded. This has an effect, naturally. I wonder if you also have an opinion on what those effects might be?

 

[CRI]

You're leaving out the fact she was a massively shite candidate .

How was she any more shite than any other candidate put up by either party during my lifetime? How was she so much worse than Donald Trump? Jesus.

 

[J Ed]

Apologists of the Obama mass surveillance and war infrastructure, do you now regret that support?

 

[redsquirrel]

So, only someone who has graduated from Harvard, Penn State, or MIT should be allowed to vote, or what?

What are you actually trying to say when arguing that people are too ignorant/not educated enough to elect Clinton?

And why, crucially, did this ignorance not prevent them from electing Obama, not once but twice? Are you suggesting that there's been a sudden growth in ignorance/decline in education in the last four/eight years?

This stuff about eduction liberals having been coming out with is both disgusting and dangerous, and shows clearly why socialist can't align themselves with them. The 'solution' of some to the problem of a popular hard right seems to be strength the other 'pillars' of representative democracy to make it even more remote and disconnected from people's lives. Of course this is handing the fox the keys to the chicken coop.

And here we go full circle.

It. was. about. race.

Unpalatable as it seems, I'm convinced most people voted FOR Trump, not against Clinton. White Americans showed their loyalty to race above any loyalty to class, gender, etc.

Then how did he win while getting a lower number of voters than McCain and Romney? And quite frankly this 'loyalty' stuff, whether to class or race, is vile, the logical conclusion is that BME voters that voted for Trump are race traitors.

 

[dick cheney]

Some of those 'less bigoted white folks' voted for Trump.

Obama won the white vote in 2008 btw.

Exactly. Obama would have won this election too, still more popular than either candidate.

Imagine an election in the UK between Peter Mandelson and Jeremy Clarkson. One a long term public servant, minister, track record, yada yada, also dodge on cash and somehow a millionaire. The other calls east Asian folk slant eyes and wants to shoot union members. Clarkson would walk it.

I still think this is the dying kick of nationalism. The right at each other's throats, aided by on-balance reactionary ageing populations in OECD counties thanks to amazing healthcare advances since WW2.

The nationalists in power are now faced with much more difficult choices. What happens if they screw it up? Where do they go then? What if the rust belt voters, or Mr Angry from Boston, Lincs, are still knee deep in shit in 4-5 years. All this amazing hand wringing about `the death of liberal democracy` is ridiculous, like there aren't mid-terms in the US in 2yrs.

Will the nationalist right be prepared to re-enact their atrocities from the 1930s/40s if they screw it up? I doubt it. In which case, they better get it right or their time is done.

 

[gosub]

2016 Election Results: President Live Map by State, Real-Time Voting Updates

There are about half a dozen states where the 3rd candidate polled higher than the difference between Clinton and Trump. Seems to have benefited Clinton in states with less electoral college votes and Trump in those with more

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am not so sure that Obama would have beaten Trump. That thought is a difficult one given the absolute dog whistle disgrace of Trumps' campaign.

 

[J Ed]

This is what the DNC chair is doing now.

 

[ferrelhadley]

Some of those 'less bigoted white folks' voted for Trump.

Obama won the white vote in 2008 btw.

If someone voted Obama, this automatically means hey would not be tempted by promises to expel illegal immigrants and build walls.

The things you learn on Urban.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I am not so sure that Obama would have beaten Trump. That thought is a difficult one given the absolute dog whistle disgrace of Trumps' campaign.

I'd like to think that Obama would have won; but it's hard to prognosticate on that alternate reality.

Trump's attack on Obama as a black man would have been twice as intense as his attack against a female candidate: Trump might have been more effective at mobilizing the white vote than Romney was. Romney - a Mormon - encountered difficulty with some of the diverse white Christian constituencies, for instance.

 

[dick cheney]

I'd like to think that Obama would have won; but it's hard to prognosticate on that alternate reality.

Trump's attack on Obama as a black man would have been twice as intense as his attack against a female candidate: Trump might have been more effective at mobilizing the white vote than Romney was. Romney - a Mormon - encountered difficulty with some of the diverse white Christian constituencies, for instance.

Obama's popularity ratings right now are still higher than either Trump or Clinton...