Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Oh, oh! I know this - it means I'm sheeple. At last something simple I can understand!

Seriously fella, if you want to moan about people having a pop at you affecting your health, you really need to step away from the parts of the boards where when you post crap like this people have a pop at you.

 

[teqniq]

They don't mean liberal like how we mean it

Perhaps not but it still made me laugh.

 

[treelover]

No he's talking complete fucking shit.

Anyway on to actual issues. Depressingly, it appears, that Michael Moore was on the money,

5 Reasons Why Trump Will Win

Moore again
Morning After To-Do List:

1. Take over the Democratic Party and return it to the people. They have failed us miserably.

2. Fire all pundits, predictors, pollsters and anyone else in the media who had a narrative they wouldn't let go of and refused to listen to or acknowledge what was really going on. Those same bloviators will now tell us we must "heal the divide" and "come together." They will pull more hooey like that out of their ass in the days to come. Turn them off.

3. Any Democratic member of Congress who didn't wake up this morning ready to fight, resist and obstruct in the way Republicans did against President Obama every day for eight full years must step out of the way and let those of us who know the score lead the way in stopping the meanness and the madness that's about to begin.

4. Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair. YEARS of being neglected by both parties, the anger and the need for revenge against the system only grew. Along came a TV star they liked whose plan was to destroy both parties and tell them all "You're fired!" Trump's victory is no surprise. He was never a joke. Treating him as one only strengthened him. He is both a creature and a creation of the media and the media will never own that.

5. You must say this sentence to everyone you meet today: "HILLARY CLINTON WON THE POPULAR VOTE!" The MAJORITY of our fellow Americans preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. Period. Fact. If you woke up this morning thinking you live in an effed-up country, you don't. The majority of your fellow Americans wanted Hillary, not Trump. The only reason he's president is because of an arcane, insane 18th-century idea called the Electoral College. Until we change that, we'll continue to have presidents we didn't elect and didn't want. You live in a country where a majority of its citizens have said they believe there's climate change, they believe women should be paid the same as men, they want a debt-free college education, they don't want us invading countries, they want a raise in the minimum wage and they want a single-payer true universal health care system. None of that has changed. We live in a country where the majority agree with the "liberal" position. We just lack the liberal leadership to make that happen (see: #1 above).

Let's try to get this all done by noon today.

-- Michael Moore

www.facebook.com/mmflint/posts/10153913074756857

 

[krtek a houby]

Seriously fella, if you want to moan about people having a pop at you affecting your health, you really need to step away from the parts of the boards where when you post crap like this people have a pop at you.

Seriously fella, that was information from a pm. Strictly between you and me.

 

[agricola]

BTW a lot of the the primary states where we saw most of the action where liberal pundits and their hangers on pushed the whole 'BERNIE OWNED SLAVES AND BEATS HIS WIFE' crap over and over went to Trump. Wisconsin, Michigan etc

Comment is Free was glorious around that time; loads of posters on a lot of articles claiming things like (for instance) because there wasn't a certain percentage of black people in shot on some photos of Sanders rallies that they had selected, it meant that Bernie was a massive racist.

 

[J Ed]

Comment is Free was glorious around that time; loads of posters on a lot of articles claiming things like (for instance) because there wasn't a certain percentage of black people in shot on some photos of Sanders rallies that they had selected, it meant that Bernie was a massive racist.

Yes, comment sections on a lot of the internet were like that during the primaries. No doubt some of it was organic but a lot of paid commentators did it too, just as a lot of leading liberal journos were directed by the Clinton campaign to push similar narratives which undoubtedly helped to undo the actual campaign after the primaries.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Seriously fella, that was information from a pm. Strictly between you and me.

You've been banging on about it all over the boards.

 

[andysays]

Seriously fella, that was information from a pm. Strictly between you and me.

WTF. You're forever complaining on threads to anyone who will listen that people's responses are upsetting you and affecting your health.

Even when it's suggested that you take a break, you still continue, making inane comments, hurling around ill-considered and baseless insults, and now apparently accusing someone of revealing a secret which is only known because it was contained in a private message.

Why don't you start showing some fucking responsibility for your own posts and your own behaviour rather than this constant whining and attention seeking

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not really a plan, the DNC expected a Clinton win just like everyone else did but given the chance I suspect many of them would indeed prefer Trump to Sanders!

Quite possibly. Although we shouldn't overestimate the radical nature of Sanders. He called Hugo Chavez a 'dead communist dictator', for instance.

But yes, bit like here, where it seems some Labour MPs would rather the Tories in power than Corbyn.

And this is where I'd dispute a lot of what has been posted on here in the last couple of days where people are saying the liberals got it wrong. Taking Sanders to be an actual US liberal, which I think is fair, as opposed to Clinton, who by any objective measure really is rather right-wing, the forces that helped Clinton to the nomination were not in any way 'left'. They were anti-left. And they still beat Trump in the popular vote - also a mistake, I think, to overestimate Trump's success and popularity here: he won something like 46% of a 55% turnout. He achieved the popularity needed to win the election, but that's as much a reflection of the overall rotten nature of US democracy as anything else.

 

[treelover]

The article linked to there in Vox is good.
"we need to appreciate the role of resentment: the feeling of injustice on the part of a privileged portion of society when it sees power slipping into the hands of a group that hadn't previously held it."
White riot: how racism and immigration gave us Trump, Brexit, and a whole new kind of politics

There are a lot of intersectionalists/new left, especially in the U.S who are determined that as left wing politics grows again class is never to get the primacy it once had in the movement, perhaps even reduce the role of economics/material factors, etc and that other determinants like race should be the key.

 

[krtek a houby]

You've been banging on about it all over the boards.

We spoke about it yesterday after you attacked me and the wife as "scum". Anyway, fuck you - you're on ignore now.

 

[Orang Utan]

,

WTF. You're forever complaining on threads to anyone who will listen that people's responses are upsetting you and affecting your health.

Even when it's suggested that you take a break, you still continue, making inane comments, hurling around ill-considered and baseless insults, and now apparently accusing someone of revealing a secret which is only known because it was contained in a private message.

Why don't you start showing some fucking responsibility for your own posts and your own behaviour rather than this constant whining and attention seeking

 

[krtek a houby]

WTF. You're forever complaining on threads to anyone who will listen that people's responses are upsetting you and affecting your health.

Even when it's suggested that you take a break, you still continue, making inane comments, hurling around ill-considered and baseless insults, and now apparently accusing someone of revealing a secret which is only known because it was contained in a private message.

Why don't you start showing some fucking responsibility for your own posts and your own behaviour rather than this constant whining and attention seeking

And you and the other hyenas can fuck off as well. Onto ignore with you, too.

 

[bimble]

There are a lot of intersectionalists/new left, especially in the U.S who are determined that class is never to get the primacy it once has in the movement, etc and that other determinants like race should be the key.

Not good enough. The evidence clearly shows that Trump is not an anomaly he's a symptom, and that its not all about class / economics however much you may want it to be.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

We spoke about it yesterday after you attacked me and the wife as "scum". Anyway, fuck you - you're on ignore now.

"the wife"

 

[agricola]

Quite possibly. Although we shouldn't overestimate the radical nature of Sanders. He called Hugo Chavez a 'dead communist dictator', for instance.

But yes, bit like here, where it seems some Labour MPs would rather the Tories in power than Corbyn.

And this is where I'd dispute a lot of what has been posted on here in the last couple of days where people are saying the liberals got it wrong. Taking Sanders to be an actual US liberal, which I think is fair, as opposed to Clinton, who by any objective measure really is rather right-wing, the forces that helped Clinton to the nomination were not in any way 'left'. They were anti-left. And they still beat Trump in the popular vote - also a mistake, I think, to overestimate Trump's success and popularity here: he won something like 46% of a 55% turnout. He achieved the popularity needed to win the election, but that's as much a reflection of the overall rotten nature of US democracy as anything else.

I agree it is wrong to say that liberals failed here; what failed is the US political class that twice (once in the GOP Primaries, and then in the election) got beat by Trump, largely because they fought both elections in much the same way (ie: shouting that Trump is dangerous and unfit for the nomination / the Presidency) and because they backed candidates that would inevitably have had to defend the status quo.

 

[J Ed]

Can we keep the tantrums off here please they are very boring

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are a lot of intersectionalists/new left, especially in the U.S who are determined that class is never to get the primacy it once has in the movement, etc and that other determinants like race should be the key.

'the key'?

That's the problem right there with any of this stuff. Life isn't that simple. There is no one key. Insisting on the primacy of anything is a mistake, and every factor interplays with every other factor in often complex and contradictory ways. You're not going to get very far analysing US society purely on class terms as you'll entirely miss the crucial factor that remains race. And you're not going to get anywhere analysing it using race without reference to class. And there's other stuff as well, cultural stuff including religion - more than 4 out of 5 evangelical white christians voted Trump, and social issues such as abortion rights or the death penalty are of primary concern to a lot of US voters.

US society is fractured in complex ways. As others have posted before, in many ways it's best to split the place up into distinct cultural groups and analyse each one separately, again a conclusion you won't be able to reach just by looking at economic class.

 

[andysays]

And you and the other hyenas can fuck off as well. Onto ignore with you, too.

 

[J Ed]

 

[krtek a houby]

Can we keep the tantrums off here please they are very boring

No more tantrums - I've put them on ignore! Unfortunately, the Trump tantrums I'm fairly sure will last at least 4 years. Or more.

 

[treelover]

Not good enough. The evidence clearly shows that Trump is not an anomaly he's a symptom, and that its not all about class / economics however much you may want it to be.

So you fully agree with that identity politics driven article in Vox?

 

[treelover]

'the key'?

That's the problem right there with any of this stuff. Life isn't that simple. There is no one key. Insisting on the primacy of anything is a mistake, and every factor interplays with every other factor in often complex and contradictory ways. You're not going to get very far analysing US society purely on class terms as you'll entirely miss the crucial factor that remains race. And you're not going to get anywhere analysing it using race without reference to class. And there's other stuff as well, cultural stuff including religion - more than 4 out of 5 evangelical white christians voted Trump, and social issues such as abortion rights or the death penalty are of primary concern to a lot of US voters.

US society is fractured in complex ways. As others have posted before, in many ways it's best to split the place up into distinct cultural groups and analyse each one separately, again a conclusion you won't be able to reach just by looking at economic class.

I am not saying class always should have primacy, as you say look at religion in the U.S(though what % of evangelicals are WC?) but there is a determined effort by US liberals to reduce its importance, maybe because many are indeed middle class or above.

 

[bimble]

So you fully agree with that identity politics driven article in Vox?

Do you fully agree with the thing it is arguing against,
ie
"The conventional wisdom, spelled out in gallons of digital ink, is economic. Trump's rise, the story goes, is the product of economic losses suffered by the white working class. Hundreds of thousands of jobs are estimated to have been lost due to globalization in recent decades, with industries like manufacturing absorbing much of the pain..
That’s created an ocean of angry and frustrated people — primarily blue-collar and primarily white — who are susceptible to the appeal of a nationalist leader promising to bring back what they feel has been taken away."

Does that basically sum up your view?
It is the story that we are constantly told, same with Brexit, and I am not buying it.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Not a big fan of Moore's, but this bit:

4. Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair.

Is of course correct.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I am not saying class always should have primacy, as you say look at religion in the U.S(though what % of evangelicals are WC?) but there is a determined effort by US liberals to reduce its importance, maybe because many are indeed middle class or above.

I don't have a breakdown, but in parts of the US - in the Bible Belt - there are many evangelicals of all classes. In Mississippi, for instance, the majority of Christians are Baptists. Mississippi is a very poor state, and yet, very red.

 

[chilango]

The other facet of of focussing on class, that no one seems to have mentioned overtly but that lies behind a lot of what we are arguing about, is that we can organise on the basis of class and that class-based organisation has the power to change society in ways that identity based organising does not.

 

[bimble]

Not a big fan of Moore's, but this bit:

'Everyone must stop saying they are "stunned" and "shocked". What you mean to say is that you were in a bubble and weren't paying attention to your fellow Americans and their despair.'

Is of course correct.

Yeas cos white people are just naturally more despairing, even those earning above $250,000 a year, they just couldn't help voting for Trump, because so much despair.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yeas cos white people are just naturally more despairing, even those earning above $250,000 a year, they just couldn't help voting for Trump, because so much despair.

There's none so blind as those who will not see. Said someone-or-other.

 

[Lucy Fur]

Yeas cos white people are just naturally more despairing, even those earning above $250,000 a year, they just couldn't help voting for Trump, because so much despair.

Thats not how I read that quote, I thought Moore meant Americans were not bothering about people who were worse off than themselves, too much I'm alright jack attitude.