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Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

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DotCommunist said:
it is interesting how the guardian and others have seized on that reassuring chart showing trumps larges vote in the p/b and h/b range. Class can safely be sidelined again, unless you look at the numbers more closely and in context
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What does this mean?
 
Miss Caphat said:
I have truly lost faith in at least half of this country. there is no excuse
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Only 26.4% of the electorate voted for Trump.

EDIT: Actually I think it must be less than that. Wikipedia has turnout at 55.6%, but unless the electorate of the US has dropped markedly from 2012 that must be wrong as as Jim W pointed both Trump and Clinton had a lower popular vote than Obama and Romney. :confused:

EDIT2: Forgot about 3rd party candidates so 26.4% could be correct.
 
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Eva Luna said:
It's mostly white men isn't it, that voted for him. White men whose jobs were taken away and given outside the US, for economic reasons.
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Depends where you are reading the stats really. I just saw something that detailed his voter template as White, rural and religious. What is clear across all the things I had seen though is that his voters were mainly men and he did far better with White, colleged educated men and women than anyone expected.
 
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! We live right next to them and he is going to jam the keystone pipeline through, whilst Obama has been rightfully blocking it. The nutter wants to start up old coal furnaces. There goes the the American/Paris climate agreement and just condoning a highly materialistic fool with no integrity or common decency to even run is really descraceful--and telling about 1/2 their population. I am glad my father is not alive to see this--I remember him raising his voice "I'm surrounded by ignorance.
Sorry, I'm done and I am not reading any more news for th next two weeks--we need to be calm and relaxed.

I believe people were never designed to take on this much info and stress. Let's cut ourselves some slack yeh?
 
redsquirrel said:
No one is 'blaming the victims'.

It's not blaming the victims to attempt to analyse the forces that are driven the surge of the hard-right across the west, it's not not blaming the victims to recognise that people's politics are informed by material conditions, it's not blaming the victims to look at the interplay of capital and labour.

To simply say 'oh all these people are racists' not only doesn't explain a single thing its ostrich behaviour and is only going to benefit the hard-right.
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Equally, shouting 'what about class?' every time someone talks about the existence and influence of racism/prejudice shuts down valid discussion.

IMO/E it's ostrich behaviour that tells people loud and clear, your experiences are not important enough, that they should put up ad shut up for the 'common good'.
 
I know this link has been posted a few times, but I think the discussion here would benefit if people took the trouble to look at it and reflect on what it shows, particular the extreme right column which shows what the swing was from R to D or D to R in various categories compared to last time (2012).

Taking the example of education, it shows that there was a swing of 8% points from R to D among those with a college degree and above, and a swing of 10% from D to R among those without.

And if we look at just white people and their education, it shows that there was a swing of 10% from college graduates from R to D, and a swing of 14% from D to R among those without a college degree.

So from this measure of privilege (and a number of others if you check the figures) we've seen the less privileged moving towards Trump and the more privileged moving towards Clinton, in comparison to the Obama/Romney election.

People can argue about why this is and what it means, and there can be many conflicting opinions about that, but a failure to recognise what actually happened, rather than what some pundit previously thought might happen, means your opinion isn't based on reality, and is therefore not worth a great deal.
 
Rutita1 said:
Depends where you are reading the stats really. I just saw something that detailed his voter template as White, rural and religious. What is clear across all the things I had seen though is that his voters were mainly men and he did far better with White, colleged educated men and women than anyone expected.
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And she did far worse amongst people of colour and women and than anyone expected, given the nature of Trump's campaign. But to ignore the whiteness of his base and just describe it in economic or education terms is very disingenuous.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/u...n=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region&_r=0
 
bluescreen said:
That link's not working (just gives your login page) so could you c+p the relevant bits, please?
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Donald Trump’s Victory Was Built on Unique Coalition of White Voters
Donald J. Trump’s America flowered through the old union strongholds of the Midwest, along rivers and rail lines that once moved coal from southern Ohio and the hollows of West Virginia to the smelters of Pennsylvania.

It flowed south along the Mississippi River, through the rural Iowa counties that gave Barack Obama more votes than any Democrat in decades, and to the Northeast, through a corner of Connecticut and deep into Maine.

And it extended through the suburbs of Cleveland and Minneapolis, of Manchester, N.H., and the sprawl north of Tampa, Fla., where middle-class white voters chose Mr. Trump over Hillary Clinton.

One of the biggest upsets in American political history was built on a coalition of white voters unlike that of any other previous Republican candidate, according to election results and interviews with voters and demographic experts.

Mr. Trump’s coalition comprised not just staunchly conservative Republicans in the South and West. They were joined by millions of voters in the onetime heartlands of 20th-century liberal populism — the Upper and Lower Midwest — where white Americans without a college degree voted decisively to reject the more diverse, educated and cosmopolitan Democratic Party of the 21st century, making Republicans the country’s dominant political party at every level of government.

Mr. Trump spoke to their aspirations and fears more directly than any Republican candidate in decades, attacking illegal immigrants and Muslims and promising early Wednesday to return “the forgotten men and women of our country” to the symbolic and political forefront of American life. He electrified the country’s white majority and mustered its full strength against long-term demographic decay.
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But Mr. Trump won low-income white voters to the Republican ticket, reversing a partisan divide along class lines that is as old as the Democratic and Republican Parties — a replay of the “Brexit” vote in June, when the old bastions of England’s Labor-left voted decisively to leave the European Union. His breakthrough among white working-class voters in the North not only erased the Democratic advantage but reversed it, giving him a victory in the Electoral College while he lost the national popular vote.

Most strikingly, Mr. Trump won his biggest margins among middle-income white voters, according to exit polls, a revolt not only of the white working class but of the country’s vast white middle class. He did better than past Republicans in the sprawling suburbs along Florida’s central coasts, overwhelming Mrs. Clinton’s gains among Hispanic voters. He held down Mrs. Clinton’s margins in the Philadelphia suburbs, defying expectations that Mrs. Clinton would outperform Mr. Obama by a wide margin.
..
 
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bimble said:
And she did far worse amongst people of colour and women and than anyone expected, given the nature of Trump's campaign. But to ignore the whiteness of his base and just describe it in economic or education terms is very disingenuous...
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The problem I have with this statement, and it seems to be a widespread one, is that it follows the very "logic" of those who said that because of the nature of Trump and his campaign (and he and it clearly were racist, misogynist etc) all the Clinton campaign had to do was keep pointing this out and dismissing anyone who might vote for him as themselves racist, misogynist etc.

And in doing so, they missed completely that there was more than this to Trump's campaign and his appeal to a significant group of voters who might be expected to vote Democrat and who did vote for Obama (which makes it difficult to simply paint them as racists, BTW). The Clinton campaign didn't recognise the significance of this, and probably would have struggled to counter it even if they had recognised it, because of the extent to which Clinton represented the very thing those former Democrats have had enough of.

I fully expect most of those voters to feel they've been let down and fucked over after a few years of a Trump presidency and it becomes clear that his appeal was actually bullshit, but by then it will be too late...
 
Rutita1 said:
Equally, shouting 'what about class?' every time someone talks about the existence and influence of racism/prejudice shuts down valid discussion.
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Who's done that? Nobody that I've seen, of course people's attitudes to race played a role, and those attitudes are themselves influenced by the materials conditions and environment that surround people.
 
andysays said:
The problem I have with this statement, and it seems to be a widespread one, is that it follows the very "logic" of those who said that because of the nature of Trump and his campaign (and he and it clearly were racist, misogynist etc) all the Clinton campaign had to do was keep pointing this out and dismissing anyone who might vote for him as themselves racist, misogynist etc.

And in doing so, they missed completely that there was more then this to Trump's campaign and his appeal to a significant group of voters who might be expected to vote Democrat and who did vote for Obama (which makes it difficult to simply paint them as racists, BTW). The Clinton campaign didn't recognise the significance of this, and probably would have struggled to counter it even if they had recognised it, because of the extent to which Clinton represented the very thing those former Democrats have had enough of.

I fully expect most of those voters to feel they've been let down and fucked over after a few years of a Trump presidency and it becomes clear that his appeal was actually bullshit, but by then it will be too late...
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I think the voters who came out for trump were white elderly and disenfranchised, Clinton was never going to appeal to them, neither was Bernie.
 
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8den said:
I think the voters who came out for trump were white elderly and disenfranchised, Clinton was never going to appeal to them, neither was Bernie.
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Then maybe you should spend less time worrying about the date of a Simpson's cartoon and more time examining what actually happened and what others here have actually written rather than your ignorant or careless mis-readings
 
8den said:
I think the voters who came out for trump were white elderly and disenfranchised, Clinton was never going to appeal to them, neither was Bernie.
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One of the (many) things that has surprised and saddened me in the figures is the swing of young people (18-29 age group) to Trump. So it wasn't just the oldsters.
 
redsquirrel said:
Who's done that? Nobody that I've seen, of course people's attitudes to race played a role but those attitudes are themselves influenced by the materials conditions and environment that people are in.
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But everyone has a 'material condition and environment', across class. Which are you referring to? If you are implying that only poorer people are generally racist because of their own disenfranchisement/oppression, that's bullshit.
 
andysays said:
Then maybe you should spend less time worrying about the date of a Simpson's cartoon and more time examining what actually happened and what others here have actually written rather than your ignorant or careless mis-readings
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I'm capable of both.
 
bimble said:
One of the (many) things that has surprised and saddened me in the figures is the swing of young people (18-29 age group) to Trump. So it wasn't just the oldsters.
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And 11.5% of the LGBT community, not to mention hispanics and white women.
 
Rutita1 said:
But everyone has a 'material condition and environment', across class. Which are you referring to?
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Of course they do, but they are different for different people aren't they. I mean the fact that black people have to deal with the material consequences of racism is one the reason why there is such a stark difference in the way black and white americans voted.
Rutita1 said:
If you are implying that only poorer people are generally racist because of their own disenfranchisement/oppression, that's bullshit.
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Certainly not implying any such thing, not sure how you got that idea :confused:
 
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