Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion
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Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Yes, any possible ruling against Trump may well be struck down by the SC, some predict they will pass the buck to Congress, who they know are too deadlocked to ever keep Trump off the ballot.
Still, I disagree with your second sentence. Trump’s candidacy poses the gravest existential threat to Western democracies since the Third Reich. When he was last president he tried to overthrow democracy - both by voter suppression and by inciting an insurrection. This time he’s promised to jail his opponents, declare martial law and set up a sprawling network of concentration camps. His sheer incompetence is somewhat of a source of comfort, but not enough to gamble the future of civilisation on! His advisers and allies may well have learned some of their errors in execution from last time.
The really dangerous precedent here is allowing Trump on the ballot. It would establish that people who try to destroy democracy will face no consequences for their actions. Even if Trump’s ultimately too thick to carry out his deranged plans a more savvy fascist may well not be. Sometimes a firm line in the sand has to be drawn. Trump must be held to account for his criminality.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Whilst not allowing him om the ballot will fuel the far right with their own shouts of anti-democracy. The whole farrago sets dangerous precedents not least of which is the fact that his opponents feel they have to prevent him running legally to impede him from the White House. Everything you say is true, yet despite having years to prepare for this, they are still unable to field a candidate that they're confident could simply get more votes.
The fundamental problem is that more people are likely to vote for Trump, than the other guys.
This is the failure of those who oppose him.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
I don't disagree that Trump (and more importantly, the cunts behind him like Bannon and Miller) poses an existential threat to the US and a whole bunch of other countries beyond their borders. They are vile, neo-fascistic demagogues who are hostile to any form of democratic governance. Just so we're clear.
However, what they tried to do with this legal action is remove from the ballot a guy who, under current US federal and constitutional law, is not deemed to be ineligible to run. He has not been tried and criminally convicted of insurrection, sedition, seditious conspiracy or treason (or even any other criminal charge for which there is a prohibition clause against being qualified to run). Yet.
But that's the point: Yet.
Even though there is an overwhelming amount of public evidence for the commission and perpetration of these crimes, there is still a presumption of innocence until guilt is proven in a court of law -and that has not in fact happened. Yet.
If they had gone to the courts after he was tried and found guilty of his crimes, instead of blowing their wad early on a doomed legal gesture, they'd have stood a better chance of getting their way without making a big noise and giving the far right yet another grievance point to push on their voters and motivate them to turn out. In addition, there's that 'unaligned' third of the US electorate who have a significant percentage of their number that lean right and who (as a result of their 'principles') take a dim view of "government overreach" who might now become animated by this decision and, as a result, might put their electoral thumb on the scales in 2024.
All this exercise in legal futility has done is get a state-level decision about this issue made in Trump's (and now any other demagogic, far right dickhead's) favour, made a big showy noise in the national media, and drawn attention to the fact that, under the present system, the legal strategy of 'Delay, Delay, Delay' is one that works for showy grifters and dangerous extremists.
We may not like how it's currently being used and abused, but that's the system they work under. There are justifiable parallels between 1930's Europe and the present-day US -particularly WRT the breakdown of trust in government, a hopelessly dysfunctional legislative branch and a legal and constitutional system ill-prepared for such a focused and organised movement to subvert and destroy it -the mood music certainly sounds alarming.
Sadly, the only way to remove the guy is to work within the creaky and hopelessly compromised system that they find themselves in. Due to how badly stacked the deck is against such an action, going to court with a certifiable 'lock-out' would have been the better option (even then there's no guaranteeing that even that would succeed) -especially in a legal system where it seems that their publicly elected judges don't necessarily even have to have a thorough knowledge of the laws upon which they base their decisions upon.
The fact that they chose to go in prematurely and perform the legal equivalent of the charge of the light brigade is beyond short-sighted and self-defeating. All they have succeded in doing is fuelling this monster that threatens to overwhelm them all and that is bordering on the unforgivable.
The sentence I've put in bold in your quoted post, this is not going to happen in time for that to be considered.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Good post.
So we agree that Trump and his associates are an extistential threat to democracy and that there is a principled political and legal case for excluding him from the ballot, but disagree about whether this lawsuit is tactically wise. I also share your worries about these lawsuits sparking political backlash. A few counter points to your post however:
1. To say that 'under current US federal and constitutional law' trump is 'not... ineligable to run' is begging the question - the point of this lawsuit is to arrive at a determination on that point!
2. Yes, it would have been better if this lawsuit came after criminal charge relating to Trump's role in January 6, but such a criminal charge has not arisen (for whatever reason) and, I agree with chandlerp that there is no feasible chance a trial pertaining to such matters could conclude before the next election, so I disagree that this lawsuit is premature. It's now or never.
3. The lawsuit would not have stood a better chance if he had first been found guilty of offences in relation to January 6, the judge found as a factual matter that Trump had engaged in insurrection through incitement! The sticking point was a narrow legal technically (whether the presidency is an 'office' of the United Stated). The judge herself noted there were 'persuasive arguments on both sides' on that issue, and several other prominant judges and legal scholars have landed on the other side of the question, so there's still a lot to play for here.
4. Trump's presumption of innocence is not undermined by this lawsuit. The burden was on the petitioners to show, on the preponderence of the evidence, that Trump engaged in an insurrection through incitement. The judge found, after 95 pages of detailed analysis, that they met that standard.
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I just read some of your recent posts (just for context) and wondered: are you just a troll?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
I see the prick thought better of it and deleted his post. Yep, definitely a troll, and a pretty inept one at that.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
If the alarm bells aren't ringing at this stage, they really should be.
Humberto
Relax
He's talking about 'routing the fake news media', meaning: controlling and assuming the authority to silence any opposition or non-aligned/fawning voices. Then he is using the catch-all 'drive out the fascists, communists, marxists' which will be any organisation, group or individual he labels it with as he takes the authority to attack and suppress to 'defend America'. He's a fascist of the post truth variety and many in the political and ruling classes across the world are lining themselves up to take advantage.
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spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
I read something about how the really rich in America are donating millions to Donny's campaign. If he gets elected, it is doubtful he will increase taxes on the rich.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Nothing new there. All political parties rely on and reward the heavy donors.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Two things that concern me:
1. There was some polling recently that showed Trump had a majority even among young people. Liberal Twitter was dismissing this, claiming young people don’t answer their phones to unknown numbers so can’t be accurately reached by polling calls, ignoring the fact that the polling industry isn’t stupid and weighs sampling for these sort of things. What they are not seeing is the reach of people like Andrew Tate and Musk, particularly among young men - there is a huge toxic wave of entitlement and misogyny fed by such heavily promoted social media stars, I suspect this is where the dark money is currently at work. Don’t ignore this.
2. Russia and Saudi Arabia recently agreed future cuts in production that look suspiciously timed for the US election cycle - this will push up prices and cause discontent. Oil states will interfere like this to try and keep out governments that back climate action (and Russia also had an interest in stopping support for Ukraine). Expect this to happen and oil prices to become an issue.
1. There was some polling recently that showed Trump had a majority even among young people. Liberal Twitter was dismissing this, claiming young people don’t answer their phones to unknown numbers so can’t be accurately reached by polling calls, ignoring the fact that the polling industry isn’t stupid and weighs sampling for these sort of things. What they are not seeing is the reach of people like Andrew Tate and Musk, particularly among young men - there is a huge toxic wave of entitlement and misogyny fed by such heavily promoted social media stars, I suspect this is where the dark money is currently at work. Don’t ignore this.
2. Russia and Saudi Arabia recently agreed future cuts in production that look suspiciously timed for the US election cycle - this will push up prices and cause discontent. Oil states will interfere like this to try and keep out governments that back climate action (and Russia also had an interest in stopping support for Ukraine). Expect this to happen and oil prices to become an issue.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If pollsters are so intelligent and wise why are they so often wrong?
It is insane how quickly the algorithm on YouTube starts feeding you the likes of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson based on e.g. watching something about a video game which flags you as a young man.
A lot of the alt right gateway preys on young men's insecurities and anxieties about dating and about their masculinity and identity. It's powerful shit. If I think back to when I was an angsty teen frustrated in love, I can't say for certain that I wouldn't be drawn into it if I was a young single man today.
E2A: I do think that a lot of the social media left leaping on any expression of romantic frustration from young men (totally normal part of life and of growing up imo) as entitlement or veiled misogyny isn't helpful either, being sad that a girl you fancy doesn't like you back isn't automatically entitlement but a lot of social media discourse acts like it is. There should be more productive and empathic ways of engaging with this sort of thing that doesn't push young men into the alt-right which validates their feelings and then leads them down a hateful path. Back in the day these frustrations wouldn't go further than someone's private thoughts or private conversation but social media has made this in the public sphere and it isn't really being dealt with well.
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krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
likesfish
You can't park here sir
it depends it normal to feel despondant about love bad poetry and smith songs are a legit outcome etc.
feeling sad because you cant get a date fine maybe getting a job or volunteering and generally attempting to get a life worked for me is one thing and does evenuatally help.
ranting on social media and ranting with other males in the same boat isn't going to help or is legit and needs to be called out.
The only saving grace is Trump is a fuckwit who can't or won't listen he had the CIA on speed dial they must have been throwing things at the TV watching jan 6th "thats not how you organise a coup what is this amateur hour?
. He has evil plans and his advisors are worse its just they are lazy entitled and incompetant they cant even pass a budget when they have the house majority without democratic help
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
I know that’s a bit of a twatty term, but you know what I mean by it - those kind of complacent commentariat lot that still can’t figure out why people were lukewarm about Hilary Clinton. I hate this feeling that there will be people who didn’t see this coming and won’t have done anything to counter it before realising the consequences.liberal twitter
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
It's amazing how much bigots can get away with
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
moved to Trump ridicule thread
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Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Recent statement from Robert De Niro on Trump:
“I’ve spent a lot of time studying bad men. I’ve examined their characteristics, their mannerisms, the utter banality of their cruelty.
Yet there’s something different about Donald Trump. When I look at him, I don’t see a bad man. Truly.
I see an evil one.
Over the years, I’ve met gangsters here and there. This guy tries to be one, but he can’t quite pull it off. There’s such a thing as “honor among thieves.” Yes, even criminals usually have a sense of right and wrong.
Whether they do the right thing or not is a different story — but — they have a moral code, however warped.
Donald Trump does not. He’s a wannabe tough guy with no morals or ethics. No sense of right or wrong. No regard for anyone but himself — not the people he was supposed to lead and protect, not the people he does business with, not the people who follow him, blindly and loyally, not even the people who consider themselves his “friends.” He has contempt for all of them.
We New Yorkers got to know him over the years that he poisoned the atmosphere and littered our city with monuments to his ego. We knew first hand that this was someone who should never be considered for leadership. We tried to warn the world in 2016.
The repercussions of his turbulent presidency divided America and rattled New York City beyond imagination. Remember how we were jolted by crisis in early 2020, as a virus swept the world.
We lived with Donald Trump’s bombastic behavior every day on the national stage, and we suffered as we saw our neighbors piling up in body bags.
The man who was supposed to protect this country put it in peril, because of his recklessness and impulsiveness. It was like an abusive father ruling the family by fear and violent behavior. That was the consequence of New York’s warning getting ignored. Next time, we know it will be worse.
Make no mistake: the twice-impeached, 4-time indicted Donald Trump is still a fool. But we can’t let our fellow Americans write him off like one. Evil thrives in the shadow of dismissive mockery, which is why we must take the danger of Donald Trump very seriously.
So today we issue another warning. From this place where Abraham Lincoln spoke — right here in the beating heart of New York — to the rest of America:
This is our last chance.
Democracy won’t survive the return of a wannabe dictator.
And it won’t overcome evil if we are divided.
So what do we do about it? I know I’m preaching to the choir here. What we’re doing today is valuable, but we have to take today into tomorrow – take it outside these walls. We have to reach out to the half of our country who have ignored the hazards of Trump and, for whatever reason, support elevating him back into the White House.
They’re not stupid, and we must not condemn them for making a stupid choice. Our future doesn’t just depend on us. It depends on them.
Let’s reach out to Trump’s followers with respect. Let’s not talk about “democracy.” “Democracy” may be our holy grail, but to others it is just a word, a concept, and in their embrace of Trump, they’ve already turned their backs on it.
Let’s talk about right and wrong. Let’s talk about humanity.
Let’s talk about kindness. Security for our world.
Safety for our families.
Decency.
Let’s welcome them back.
We won’t get them all, but we can get enough to end the nightmare of Trump, and fulfill the mission of this “Stop Trump Summit.”
“I’ve spent a lot of time studying bad men. I’ve examined their characteristics, their mannerisms, the utter banality of their cruelty.
Yet there’s something different about Donald Trump. When I look at him, I don’t see a bad man. Truly.
I see an evil one.
Over the years, I’ve met gangsters here and there. This guy tries to be one, but he can’t quite pull it off. There’s such a thing as “honor among thieves.” Yes, even criminals usually have a sense of right and wrong.
Whether they do the right thing or not is a different story — but — they have a moral code, however warped.
Donald Trump does not. He’s a wannabe tough guy with no morals or ethics. No sense of right or wrong. No regard for anyone but himself — not the people he was supposed to lead and protect, not the people he does business with, not the people who follow him, blindly and loyally, not even the people who consider themselves his “friends.” He has contempt for all of them.
We New Yorkers got to know him over the years that he poisoned the atmosphere and littered our city with monuments to his ego. We knew first hand that this was someone who should never be considered for leadership. We tried to warn the world in 2016.
The repercussions of his turbulent presidency divided America and rattled New York City beyond imagination. Remember how we were jolted by crisis in early 2020, as a virus swept the world.
We lived with Donald Trump’s bombastic behavior every day on the national stage, and we suffered as we saw our neighbors piling up in body bags.
The man who was supposed to protect this country put it in peril, because of his recklessness and impulsiveness. It was like an abusive father ruling the family by fear and violent behavior. That was the consequence of New York’s warning getting ignored. Next time, we know it will be worse.
Make no mistake: the twice-impeached, 4-time indicted Donald Trump is still a fool. But we can’t let our fellow Americans write him off like one. Evil thrives in the shadow of dismissive mockery, which is why we must take the danger of Donald Trump very seriously.
So today we issue another warning. From this place where Abraham Lincoln spoke — right here in the beating heart of New York — to the rest of America:
This is our last chance.
Democracy won’t survive the return of a wannabe dictator.
And it won’t overcome evil if we are divided.
So what do we do about it? I know I’m preaching to the choir here. What we’re doing today is valuable, but we have to take today into tomorrow – take it outside these walls. We have to reach out to the half of our country who have ignored the hazards of Trump and, for whatever reason, support elevating him back into the White House.
They’re not stupid, and we must not condemn them for making a stupid choice. Our future doesn’t just depend on us. It depends on them.
Let’s reach out to Trump’s followers with respect. Let’s not talk about “democracy.” “Democracy” may be our holy grail, but to others it is just a word, a concept, and in their embrace of Trump, they’ve already turned their backs on it.
Let’s talk about right and wrong. Let’s talk about humanity.
Let’s talk about kindness. Security for our world.
Safety for our families.
Decency.
Let’s welcome them back.
We won’t get them all, but we can get enough to end the nightmare of Trump, and fulfill the mission of this “Stop Trump Summit.”
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
And he doesn't seem to like America very much. Always denigrating it.
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