Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[emanymton]

Yes, we know you despise Trump, I get that. I'm just puzzled by your complete lack of empathy/ understanding / curiosity about Trump's voters. About his appeal. I think it's important to understand what's going on, not just fulminate about how terrible it is. That doesn't get us anywhere.

Of the voters that switched from voting Biden last time to Trump this time one of the main reason given is support for RFK.

Can we all please at least agree that those people must be fucking idiots.

 

[Rompipalle]

Yes, we know you despise Trump, I get that. I'm just puzzled by your complete lack of empathy/ understanding / curiosity about Trump's voters. About his appeal. I think it's important to understand what's going on, not just fulminate about how terrible it is. That doesn't get us anywhere.

What do you mean? I have plenty of empathy for people who don't seem to realise that they have been conned - utterly and completely conned by this utter charlatan. I can't MAKE them see that he is a wrong 'un though, can I? It's as plain as day for many of us what he is. It was their choice to make, nevertheless but I will not stand by and commend them for their superb judgment in electing a liar and a sex offender to lead their country.

Between the end of January 2021 and up to now, generally speaking, the people of the US have experienced relative peace & quiet and stability. I realise that the country was not transformed into an idyllic paradise under Biden's administration but at least the grown-ups were in charge and things ticked over in a reasonably stable manner. After the forthcoming inauguration, they are going to be plunged straight back into chaos and any promises Trump has made over the past couple of years will be swiftly forgotten as he unleashes personal vendettas and wages battles against all and sundry. There isn't going to be a lot done for the working class people who put him back in the White House.

I think many people will be repenting at leisure at their folly and one can only hope that the mechanism still exists in four years time for him never to be elected again... but you can be sure that he will be seeking ways to try - or to put one of his appalling sons there in his place.

 

[BigMoaner]

I’m still amazed that in my life time a genuine crazy person has got into power like that. He’s not crazy in the psychotic-neurotic frame but in the personality disorder frame. No official diagnosis but would be amazed if he hasn’t. A literal mental health crisis leading the world.

 

[lazythursday]

Of the voters that switched from voting Biden last time to Trump this time one of the main reason given is support for RFK.

Can we all please at least agree that those people must be fucking idiots.

Well no, not at all. Plenty of sheer lunacy in RFK's proposals but also a lot of genuinely inspiring stuff in there about improving nutrition and taking on vested interests in food and pharma. Holistic health, prevention not just drug treatments. Sounds (superficially) good to me.

 

[emanymton]

I really don't get the desire to jump in and defend the right. If someone said voting Democrat was stupid no one would bat an eyelid, but you say voting for Trump is stupid and people leap to the defense of Trump voters.

 

[Wilf]

Hang on a minute.

This conversation started because people where going on about how great an article was at countering that argument. So it doesn't seem fair to accuse people of making repeated posts saying the same stuff when nobody was.

Well, the article was another jumping off point for the whole debate, but I'm really replying to those reiterating the same line - fruit based insult + they must be thick + something, something.

 

[Dystopiary]

I really don't get the desire to jump in and defend the right. If someone said voting Democrat was stupid no one would bat an eyelid, but you say voting for Trump is stupid and people leap to the defense of Trump voters.

It's not about defending the right, it's about defending the working class and trying to understand the right.

 

[BigMoaner]

Intelligence is pretty meaningless concept in my view for understanding people and the choices they make. It’s handy in every day conversation I guess but pretty useless beyond that.

 

[Aladdin]

Has Trump gone to LA to support the people who have lost their homes yet?
Nope.
Immediately after his sentencing he put out tweets or whatever to his supporters pleading for funds for himself. That's the lowest of the low.
He's a selfish self centered narcissist. He will drag the US into WW3 and his only goal is to make money for himself. He doesn't care about anyone.

 

[emanymton]

It's not about defending the right, it's about defending the working class and trying to understand the right.

Because no one working class votes democratic?

And what I see is a refusal to actually try and understand the mentality of Trump voters and just repeat the same arguments from 20 years ago.

 

[Rompipalle]

Has Trump gone to LA to support the people who have lost their homes yet?
Nope.
Immediately after his sentencing he put out tweets or whatever to his supporters pleading for funds for himself. That's the lowest of the low.
He's a selfish self centered narcissist. He will drag the US into WW3 and his only goal is to make money for himself. He doesn't care about anyone.

No, he was too busy blaming others for the fires and the manner of dealing with them.

 

[brogdale]

He had a a far clearer message than the dems: tight borders, deporting crims, lower taxes, “ prioritising American needs”. All horseshit of course but a clear message it kind of was. A clear message of difference to what was the “status quo”. The campaign by the dems was pathetic and it my view no wonder the monster walked back in.

Yep, the genius of populism; devising a 'clean-skin' vehicle that can cast blame for the deteriorating living conditions under neoliberalism on those established parties that have legislated for that process and (falsely) promise a reversal of those trends. That Trump has done that within the husk of one of the two established parties is quite extraordinary.

 

[Wilf]

I really don't get the desire to jump in and defend the right.

Really? You really think that's what's going on here?

 

[emanymton]

Really? You really think that's what's going on here?

Well not consciousnesly but there are definite double standards applied.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

If you mean Conservative or Labour - no, I have not voted for either party in any election for the past 30+ years.

Lib-dem voter then?

 

[kabbes]

I really don't get the desire to jump in and defend the right. If someone said voting Democrat was stupid no one would bat an eyelid, but you say voting for Trump is stupid and people leap to the defense of Trump voters.

It’s not about defending anybody. I couldn’t give a shit about anybody’s honour or feelings. I have no interest in defending people. That’s schoolyard shit. All I want is for the world to not turn even more into shit than it already has. And the only way — the only way — that’s going to happen is to understand the reasons for things so that you can figure out how to make change them. After all, to paraphrase Marx, the aim is not to describe the world but to change it.

 

[Rompipalle]

Lib-dem voter then?

Nope.

 

[emanymton]

It’s not about defending anybody. I couldn’t give a shit about anybody’s honour or feelings. I have no interest in defending people. That’s schoolyard shit. All I want is for the world to not turn even more into shit than it already has. And the only way — the only way — that’s going to happen is to understand the reasons for things so that you can figure out how to make change them. After all, to paraphrase Marx, the aim is not to describe the world but to change it.

I want the same, but I think we need to accept things have changed. If the dems adopt led more pro-working class policies that doesn't mean things change, things have gone past that point.

Anyway I don't think anything we do matter much, I'm pretty sure things are just fucked.

 

[kabbes]

Even if you accept that things “have changed”, that doesn’t mean they can’t carry on changing for the worse. You can only afford to write off a shit-load of people as deplorable idiots if your side already has a big majority. And it doesn’t. So maybe consider that taking that approach has failed so far and will carry on failing even worse in the future?

 

[xenon]

I really don't get the desire to jump in and defend the right. If someone said voting Democrat was stupid no one would bat an eyelid, but you say voting for Trump is stupid and people leap to the defense of Trump voters.

Not sure it's about defending Trump voters rather than the limited utility of calling them stupid. Cards on table, I flit between here and Facebook some nights and on there, do trall the news feed and call perfect strangers morons and the like. Because I find it mildly cathartic and it's that type of arena. There's no real discussion. Not big and not clever, but some times you just want to chuck a brick.

I've got no time for the patronising, let's hold hands and try to understand the misguided masses thing. I don't think anyone's doing that here but there was a element of that during the Brexit aftermarth in the wider world, media. A lot of the Trump voters, as with Brexit, are far more better off than I economically, social Capital wise anyway.

Here, when it's good, is somewhere to look at the motivations, drivers, context of why people are drawn to political tendancies. How societal, economic forces are playing out and being exploited or potential fruitful lines of defence / argument. My only objection to the volume of look at these stupids, Trump is a rotter, type posts are it's just a bit tedious and doesn't leave us learning much. Some might see that as wanky debate club stuff. I see it as useful to at least martial your own thoughts and come to an understanding where you are philosophically speaking.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not sure it's about defending Trump voters rather than the limited utility of calling them stupid. Cards on table, I flit between here and Facebook some nights and on there, do trall the news feed and call perfect strangers morons and the like. Because I find it mildly cathartic and it's that type of arena. There's no real discussion. Not big and not clever, but some times you just want to chuck a brick.

I've got no time for the patronising, let's hold hands and try to understand the misguided masses thing. I don't think anyone's doing that here but there was a element of that during the Brexit aftermarth in the wider world, media. A lot of the Trump voters, as with Brexit, are far more better off than I economically, social Capital wise anyway.

Here, when it's good, is somewhere to look at the motivations, drivers, context of why people are drawn to political tendancies. How societal, economic forces are playing out and being exploited or potential fruitful lines of defence / argument. My only objection to the volume of look at these stupids, Trump is a rotter, type posts are it's just a bit tedious and doesn't leave us learning much. Some might see that as wanky debate club stuff. I see it as useful to at least martial your own thoughts and come to an understanding where you are philosophically speaking.

Yes, I vary, shall we say. It is infuriating when obviously disingenuous bullshitters blame everything on the forrins and anyone goes along with them, let alone 70-odd million people in a single country. And yeah, lots of these people blaming the forrins are richer than me. It's not about me looking down on them. I'm looking across or up at them shaking my fist/head (depending on the mood).

 

[emanymton]

Even if you accept that things “have changed”, that doesn’t mean they can’t carry on changing for the worse. You can only afford to write off a shit-load of people as deplorable idiots if your side already has a big majority. And it doesn’t. So maybe consider that taking that approach has failed so far and will carry on failing even worse in the future?

I haven't even figured out an approach yet so it can't have failed.

But the left had been saying then same arguments for over 20 years and that had got much success

 

[emanymton]

Not sure it's about defending Trump voters rather than the limited utility of calling them stupid. Cards on table, I flit between here and Facebook some nights and on there, do trall the news feed and call perfect strangers morons and the like. Because I find it mildly cathartic and it's that type of arena. There's no real discussion. Not big and not clever, but some times you just want to chuck a brick.

I've got no time for the patronising, let's hold hands and try to understand the misguided masses thing. I don't think anyone's doing that here but there was a element of that during the Brexit aftermarth in the wider world, media. A lot of the Trump voters, as with Brexit, are far more better off than I economically, social Capital wise anyway.

Here, when it's good, is somewhere to look at the motivations, drivers, context of why people are drawn to political tendancies. How societal, economic forces are playing out and being exploited or potential fruitful lines of defence / argument. My only objection to the volume of look at these stupids, Trump is a rotter, type posts are it's just a bit tedious and doesn't leave us learning much. Some might see that as wanky debate club stuff. I see it as useful to at least martial your own thoughts and come to an understanding where you are philosophically speaking.

See I agree with this. I just think people are stuck in the past.

Over 40% of Trump supporters belive schools are performing gender transition surgery. We need to understand how something so obvious wrong takes root in the minds of millions of people and I just see that question being ignored.

Edit - what were once the fringe ideas of a few cranks are not accepted by millions. That is a change, it does matter and any analysis that ignores it is fundamental flawed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

See I agree with this. I just think people are stuck in the past.

Over 40% of Trump supporters belive schools are performing gender transition surgery. We need to understand how something so obvious wrong takes root in the minds of millions of people and I just see that question being ignored.

This is where the approach that 'we have our reality and you have your reality' doesn't really work. If one side of that reality is empirically, provably wrong about something, there isn't an equivalence between the two positions.

I don't have answers here particularly. I agree that it's necessary to understand why people are attracted to these particular untruths, which they clearly want to believe on some level. Why do they want to believe such things? There must be both pushes and pulls.

I think the pushes are easier to understand - the various failures of the current system, although these should not be exaggerated as plenty of Trump supporters are not on the breadline under this current system. This is not the Great Depression with economies falling apart and people losing their jobs in their millions.

The pulls are harder to understand. Why are people attracted to these kinds of solutions to whatever problems they perceive there to be?

 

[Dystopiary]

If I'd've grown up in the States watching Fox day in, day out, I might well have very different views than I do; so might any of us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If I'd've grown up in the States watching Fox day in, day out, I might well have very different views than I do; so might any of us.

You'd be aware that there are alternatives to Fox, though. Nobody is strapped down and forced to look at Fox and nothing else. And there are clues out there in the real world that this isn't a great way to look at things, that there are alternative points of view.

 

[xenon]

I think there's something about the nature of social media. not even the politics and bad faith actos, I mean in essence, it's more information than one person can disassemble, critique and comprehend. 50 years ago, you could read odd conspiracy magazines but you didn't have an immediate connection to like minded people. You were moderated by the distance and difficulty of finding others who could amplify, acknowledge and reward, by feeling part of something, your half baked notions. You can construct your own reality, mind palaces and all that and unless forced to by circumstance, not have to have these torn down.

 

[Dystopiary]

You'd be aware that there are alternatives to Fox, though. Nobody is strapped down and forced to look at Fox and nothing else. And there are clues out there in the real world that this isn't a great way to look at things, that there are alternative points of view.

I get that but if you were surrounded by other people watching Fox and that was the norm... I mean, I'd like to think not of course but bombarding people with right-wing shit obviously works. There's no way all those people are evil/thick/crazy etc.

 

[Ax^]

You'd be aware that there are alternatives to Fox, though. Nobody is strapped down and forced to look at Fox and nothing else. And there are clues out there in the real world that this isn't a great way to look at things, that there are alternative points of view.

hmm Americans are quite isolated in there world view so why would they look outside their local news which so more then likely a fox affiliated station , their church group or what talk radio shite is available..

 

[xenon]

You'd be aware that there are alternatives to Fox, though. Nobody is strapped down and forced to look at Fox and nothing else. And there are clues out there in the real world that this isn't a great way to look at things, that there are alternative points of view.

I'm often amazed at the lack of curiosity some people have. Also aware, that's maybe bordering on just another way of calling people ignorant...