Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

[Smokeandsteam]

Basically, this.
I'm late to this story, but it seems to incredibly poor politics to attempt to discuss hierarchies of racism by presuming to know about (or even belittle?) the racism experienced by others.

And if she was minded to wade in to the debate - which her apology statement denies by the way - surely a carefully calibrated speech or paper would be the sensible route rather than a letter to a newspaper? As LDC says above it does feel like an act of self-sabotage.

 

[StakerOne]

Yes, it’s all about you. I love the smell of right-wing narcissism in the morning.

You're welcome.

 

[teqniq]

More double standards (short thread):

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone loses with this. A "great constituency MP" should know better than to get drawn so deep into arguments in the Guardian that there's the possibility of making a blunder like this? This sort of shit is just posh people Twitter and the cost/benefit on it is only going to be worth it in extreme circumstances.

Clearly in 2023 we're past the point where we'd fall for "any attention on the discussion is good attention" but it does sort of feel like there's some key players involved in it who haven't gotten the memo. I completely understand the nuance of the various arguments going on but as someone who's in one of the ethnic groups dragged into this I'm completely unwilling to have it right now.

These people are getting paid to squabble in the Guardian while the rest of us are dealing with abuse on the street, being taken less seriously by the professionals we interact with in our day to day lives like doctors and accountants, depending on what part of the UK you're in and who you are, getting hounded by the local council for trying to run legitimate businesses and not being able to rent a place to live.

Meanwhile both the Guardian and Dianne Abbott have a profit motive in using these struggles to draw as much attention to themselves as possible regardless of the consequences for anyone else trying to have the same conversation.

to be fair yesterday evening this story had drifted quite far down the guardian website

 

[Pickman's model]

More double standards (short thread):

as i say they're all equal but some more equal than others

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm absolutely gutted that she's been suspended from the Labour party and I can't wait to see her back, because she's and endless source of entertainment.

Even though I'm White, anti-White racism isn't something I really care about, as it doesn't affect me as there aren't any woke middle class liberals around here.

da may be an endless source of entertainment. you certainly aren't

 

[Tanya1982]

You're welcome.

It was a take on a quote, that you fucking mangled with your weird addition like the total boor you are.

 

[_Russ_]

Just to add, yes Jews can usually “pass as white”, as long as they either anglicise their name, or don’t tell anyone it, and keep quiet about being Jewish.

We aren’t really going to do discrimination top trumps, though, are we?

What do you mean "pass as white"?, why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?. I no longer know wtf the definition of Racism is mostly because its use is warped so often when people talk of Jews or Muslims

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm absolutely gutted that she's been suspended from the Labour party and I can't wait to see her back, because she's and endless source of entertainment.

Even though I'm White, anti-White racism isn't something I really care about, as it doesn't affect me as there aren't any woke middle class liberals around here.

"woke"

 

[Pickman's model]

What do you mean "pass as white"?, why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?. I no longer know wtf the definition of Racism is mostly because its use is warped so often when people talk of Jews or Muslims

you don't seem to understand race either

 

[Pickman's model]

"woke"

he's someone who should be put to sleep

 

[Tanya1982]

What do you mean "pass as white"?, why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?. I no longer know wtf the definition of Racism is mostly because its use is warped so often when people talk of Jews or Muslims

That’s presumably why he placed quotation marks around it. It’s not his choice of wording or framing.

As to your question. Are Jews a race? Yes and no. Not entirely (there are converts, who enter in a religious way), but there is an ethnic component within people who are either Jewish or of Jewish heritage that’s distinct from other populations (which holds regardless of whether the person is from a Sephardic background, or an Ashkenazi one, or an Ethiopian one - research has proved that each is identifiably connected to the other, despite the centuries of vast geographical separation, rather than to the general population). It’s not a religion, because that’s Judaism. The genetic component tends towards a racial understanding. Other factors lead away from it. How individuals define is something else. It’s not as simple as you suggest.

 

[danny la rouge]

What do you mean "pass as white"?, why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?. I no longer know wtf the definition of Racism is mostly because its use is warped so often when people talk of Jews or Muslims

I put it in inverted commas because it wasn’t my phrase, so you’re not going to get the definition you want from me. My post, in case you missed the tone, was critical of that way of looking at things. My point was that we shouldn’t ask Jews to change their names or hide their heritage in order to avoid discrimination.

Your other question is answered by this earlier post of mine. You may want to read paragraph three a few times and have a bit of a think about it.

I’m just reading this now. I don’t want to spend a lot of time on it at this hour, but I think you’re making the same mistake.

I’ll quote the specific part I want to concentrate on:



First of all, let’s clear one thing up: there is one human race. On that level, Jews are not a race. They’re the same race as everyone else: human. Dividing humanity into races is literally what racism is. Race is a construct of racism.

People perceived by racists as belonging to a different race do indeed experience racism. Some very real effects. Sometimes devastating effects.

Jews experienced the ratcheting up of anti Jewish laws in Nazi Germany; the Ghettos; murder; the gas chambers. They were not asked if they were religiously observant. They were racially profiled. The genocide was not a liturgical matter. It was a matter of racism, and that result of racism: race.

This is not a trivial or pedantic point. It’s a matter that saw over 6 million murdered.

So, yes, Jews in Nazi Germany experienced racism. The ideology of the Nazis was a racial ideology.

It is not going to be a comfort to Jews today to be told “antisemitism isn’t racism, it’s religious bigotry”. Because antisemites aren’t going ask them if they’re observant Jews. Antisemites don’t go around wondering if people practise Judaism before deciding how to view them.

This is important. If a member of Parliament is writing to newspapers that “you can’t be racist towards Jews”, then, yes, that’s a problem. That downgrades antisemitism. It’s not so bad. So yes that attitude does have to be called out.

 

[Rob Ray]

Wikipedia has it as an "ethnoreligious group," which probably isn't quite there either, but at least tries to be indicative of the spectrum of interactions involved when addressing individuals' relationships with Jewishness.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

More double standards (short thread):

This bit from the tweet thread sums it up for me.

The Labour Right are implicitly saying that making false claims about antisemitism (a la Abbott) is a worse offense than making explicitly bigoted remarks against Jews (a la Sheerman).

And this is why Owulade's response, posted earlier, in which he praises Labour's swift action, is naive at best.

 

[Gramsci]

I've started to look at the actual report.

Read the conclusion.

EVENS – Evidence for Equality National Survey

www.evensurvey.co.uk

First thing is that the walk to wall media coverage about Abbot has cut out any discussion or information about the report in question.

It simply has not featured in news coverage.

Except couple of articles in Guardian.

In fact the report is nuanced in way the original Guardian article and Abbot comments are not.

The makers of this report put it in context of history of surveys about race and ethnic identity and it's relation to inequality.

As has been pointed out this changes over time. Previous surveys in 60s and 70s refereed exclusively to Black British.

With changing issues this survey has broadened out categories. Including Roma, Travellers, Jewish and white east European.

There is section in report on BLM. Which i haven't read

Looking at support for BLM they found it got support from most groups, including white British. Except for white east European and Roma.

What is unfortunate in this controversy over Abbot remarks is that the report shows that , despite entrenched inequality, there is cause for optimism. With solidarity amongst different ethnic groups for BLM.

 

[TopCat]

Why do people want discussion on heirachies of racism? An attempt to divide? Cover for shit behaviour?

 

[krtek a houby]

Why do people want discussion on heirachies of racism? An attempt to divide? Cover for shit behaviour?

Discussing racism is hardly shit behaviour, Tbh. Racism isn't rational so it can be educational to find out more about its many factors and facets. Possibly.

 

[hitmouse]

Britain ‘not close to being a racially just society’, finds two-year research project

Exclusive: More than a third of people from ethnic and religious minorities have experienced racially motivated assault, data shows

www.theguardian.com

The charts in this article show Black British as most subject to institutional racism in education and employment.

( Black Carribbean in the research definition. Which I have issues with. In my area Brixton most of these people are born here. They are as British as me who is white. It is more correct to say they are Black British with Carribbean background. Perhaps that is what the researchers meant. But its is not clear from looking at the charts)

Institutional racism is something the original Guardian article that Diane Abbot wrote a letter about ignores.

I don't think that article really supports what Abbott was saying:

Almost one in six people from minority ethic and religious groups said they had experienced a racist physical assault prior to the pandemic, according to the survey. This increased to more than one in five Jewish people and more than one in three Gypsy, Traveller and Roma people.

• More than a fifth of all minorities reported experience of discrimination from the police, though this rose to 43% of Black Caribbean groups and more than a third of Gypsy, Traveller and Roma groups.
• Ethnic minority groups were more likely to live in overcrowded housing – 60% of Roma families were overcrowded and a quarter of Pakistani and Arab people – and far more likely than white British people to be without access to outdoor space at home.

Leaving aside the A-S question, she's a politician from a party that's institutionally anti-GRT making a statement that downplays the importance of anti-GRT racism. Obviously Starmer isn't acting from a place of principle here either, and Charlotte Nichols is I suppose another interesting point of comparison.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't think that article really supports what Abbott was saying:

Leaving aside the A-S question, she's a politician from a party that's institutionally anti-GRT making a statement that downplays the importance of anti-GRT racism. Obviously Starmer isn't acting from a place of principle here either, and Charlotte Nichols is I suppose another interesting point of comparison.

100%.

 

[Kaka Tim]

why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?.

dunno - maybe because the people who for many centruies descrimianted against , brutalised, segregated and genocided jewish people see them very much as a seperate (and "sub-human)" race?

 

[ska invita]

Why do people want discussion on heirachies of racism?

Why do so many people use skin lightening creams?

 

[TopCat]

Discussing racism is hardly shit behaviour, Tbh. Racism isn't rational so it can be educational to find out more about its many factors and facets. Possibly.

You missed out the bit about heirachies of racism not discussing racism itself.

 

[TopCat]

Why do so many people use skin lightening creams?

Answering questions with questions doesn’t help.

 

[ska invita]

Answering questions with questions doesn’t help.

yeah its annoying agreed!
but my point is people talk about hierarchies of racism because they experience them

 

[purenarcotic]

I’m just reading this now. I don’t want to spend a lot of time on it at this hour, but I think you’re making the same mistake.

I’ll quote the specific part I want to concentrate on:



First of all, let’s clear one thing up: there is one human race. On that level, Jews are not a race. They’re the same race as everyone else: human. Dividing humanity into races is literally what racism is. Race is a construct of racism.

People perceived by racists as belonging to a different race do indeed experience racism. Some very real effects. Sometimes devastating effects.

Jews experienced the ratcheting up of anti Jewish laws in Nazi Germany; the Ghettos; murder; the gas chambers. They were not asked if they were religiously observant. They were racially profiled. The genocide was not a liturgical matter. It was a matter of racism, and that result of racism: race.

This is not a trivial or pedantic point. It’s a matter that saw over 6 million murdered.

So, yes, Jews in Nazi Germany experienced racism. The ideology of the Nazis was a racial ideology.

It is not going to be a comfort to Jews today to be told “antisemitism isn’t racism, it’s religious bigotry”. Because antisemites aren’t going ask them if they’re observant Jews. Antisemites don’t go around wondering if people practise Judaism before deciding how to view them.

This is important. If a member of Parliament is writing to newspapers that “you can’t be racist towards Jews”, then, yes, that’s a problem. That downgrades antisemitism. It’s not so bad. So yes that attitude does have to be called out.

Yes. Also whilst if you ask two Jews a question you’re likely to get four answers, the general consensus is that we are a race and not just a religion. You don’t stop being Jewish because you become non religious. Atheism didn’t, and still doesn’t, provide any protection from the far right. I am no less of a Jew because I don’t keep kosher. Even the crazy religious lot would say and accept that about me. And unfortunately, so do those who want me dead.

 

[Serge Forward]

What do you mean "pass as white"?, why do people still insist on discussing anything to do with Jews as if they are a race?. I no longer know wtf the definition of Racism is mostly because its use is warped so often when people talk of Jews or Muslims

Clue: when Jews were sent to the camps, it wasn't to do with their religion. Beyond the term "human race" all other references to "race" are a social constract. Jew is a social construct as much as the terms Black or White.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Why do people want discussion on heirachies of racism? An attempt to divide? Cover for shit behaviour?

Probably. But, also, the logical direction of travel for one form of identity politics - which foregrounds race as the category of material advantage and divides groups up into competitor categories fighting for resources/disparity correction under the neo-liberal order - is to develop and flesh out such a hierarchy.

 

[CH1]

I sought guidance from GB News on this this morning - Tory boy Andrew Pierce was flippant as usual and it was left to their 20 year old eminence grise Tom Harwood but he was going into raptures of ecstatic hatred against Ms Abbott.
I had to wait until about 11.45 am on Sky News to get any sense. They carried a live interview with Rachel Shabi - a regular on Sky doing the Papers.
Her view this morning was that Diane Abbot has started a debate. That she should not be expelled. That the debate should proceed.

Funnily enough if you look at Rachel Shabi's Twitter feed, yesterday luchtume she was dismayed

I guess what we have here is a very open minded person in Rachel Shabi who thinks about stuff and expresses where she is at the time.

Can't remember who it was who said it - maybe a "member of the public" but they wanted Suella Braverman expelled for racism! Quite agree.

PS it has got to something when the Labour Party - THE LABOUR PARTY - is contemplating expelling a black MP with 36 years service as an MP and more lived experience of racist abuse than any other MP. For being a racist.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If a black person tries to explain why they think racism against black people in white-majority or white-political-power countries is different from other forms of prejudice, even if you think they've got some things wrong, should your response as a non-black person ever be to dismiss that person as an idiot or to call them a racist?

I think Abbott is an idiot because her judgement as a politician should have prevented her for sending that letter. But I don't dismiss her as an idiot for thinking what she thinks. I'd debate it with her, and challenge various points (the Nazi example is a hard one to include in her schema), but I wouldn't call her names for thinking that.