Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

[likesfish]

Racism it's not difficult are you going to get your head kicked in by some fuckwit.
Because of the way you look or perceived to look?
In the UK I'd include islamphobia because skihs and Hindus have been attacked because they look muslamic.
The most fantical Hindu BJP supporter Would still get stabbed for looking Muslim like which would be darkly. Humorous

 

[bimble]

Quality of the chat inspired by her letter tells you how good her letter was.

 

[Pickman's model]

Racism it's not difficult are you going to get your head kicked in by some fuckwit.
Because of the way you look or perceived to look?
In the UK I'd include islamphobia because skihs and Hindus have been attacked because they look muslamic.
The most fantical Hindu BJP supporter Would still get stabbed for looking Muslim like which would be darkly. Humorous

Pitiful. It's not simply if other members of the public attack you, it's also how you're treated by the organs of the state

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Racism it's not difficult are you going to get your head kicked in by some fuckwit.
Because of the way you look or perceived to look?
In the UK I'd include islamphobia because skihs and Hindus have been attacked because they look muslamic.
The most fantical Hindu BJP supporter Would still get stabbed for looking Muslim like which would be darkly. Humorous

What?
So it's only racism if someone gets their head kicked in?
Blimey, who knew?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The "white people cant experience racism" argument is a fairly common one in radical black race politics. It would be interesting to the thread to post a better case made for it than the one Diane makes. Perhaps some high profile figure will make it in response.

IIRC (may be wrong) at the heart of it is the separation of discrimination and racism as two very different things. Racism is created at a particular historical point as a biologised scientific rationalised excuse by 'Enlightenment' europeans for slavery and other colonial oppressions on top.

The argument goes that oppression of Jewish people far predates this moment, but not on racialised grounds. And so on... Its gives the word 'racism' a very precise and historic meaning. However, this argument is one that needs making very precisely and Diane's letter is an example of it being made messily.

Whatever the ins and outs she's a gonner of course, sitting duck for the Starmlinist purge

The Holocaust was a prime example of racism, by everyday standards or by the standard in use by people that claim that white people can't experience racism. The argument usually goes that racism = bias + power. In Nazi Germany there was bias and there was definitely power. If you read what the Nazis themselves said about it, they considered Jews to be of another race, with clearly defined and identifiable racial characteristics. Then they used every bit of power at their disposal, sometimes prioritizing trains bound for concentration camps over those carrying troops to the front, against them.

 

[Sasaferrato]

This is fash surely. Capitalised "White".

But capitalised 'Black' is fine? I consider it racist behaviour to capitalise either.

 

[tim]

What I'm going to say is really obvious, and it may be behind what she was getting at. Black people can experience racism and prejudice solely because of their colour, whereas white Irish, Jews and other racial or linguistic minorities can pass as English (in this country) much of the time, or are as invisible as the rest of the white population. That doesn't mean the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism around the world never happened, that there was no Irish potato famine, that gypsies themselves weren't decimated by the Holocaust. But in the here and now in the UK it is people of colour who are overwhelmingly on the receiving end of prejudice. I'm of Irish heritage, but only once in my life have I found that problematic, and I was then involved in a political discussion with a squaddie back in the late 1970's.

They don't pass as English. They are English as is Abbott.

 

[Knotted]

But capitalised 'Black' is fine? I consider it racist behaviour to capitalise either.

I don't think a common garden racist would capitalise it. It's a white nationalist thing.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't think that article really supports what Abbott was saying:

Leaving aside the A-S question, she's a politician from a party that's institutionally anti-GRT making a statement that downplays the importance of anti-GRT racism. Obviously Starmer isn't acting from a place of principle here either, and Charlotte Nichols is I suppose another interesting point of comparison.

I was looking at the second graph in the article about institutional racism Black Carribbean and Other Black have highest levels of institutional racism. Roma have it for institutional racism from Police.

Institutional racism in policing , employment, education has persisted. As seen with recent Casey report on Met.

The people most effected by it are Black British people.

Looking at the original report and it is much more nuanced than either Abbot letter or the guardian article that kicked it off

It is worth imo looking at the report findings.

One thing the report is looking at is health inequalities and COVID.

It's arguing against view that higher mortalities in ethnic minority groups are due to cultural issues. What report is saying is that racism does effect health outcomes.

Tbf I find the report more interesting than the media storm about Abbot

 

[returning_1]

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

and if Abbot thinks that racism against jews is always permissible, presumably because they are white, then she has lost her f***ing mind.

like i said, we don't need a separate word for racism that isn't based on "race" just ethnicity.

 

[JimW]

and if Abbot thinks that racism against jews is always permissible, presumably because they are white, then she has lost her f***ing mind.

like i said, we don't need a separate word for racism that isn't based on "race" just ethnicity.

Strikes me that the language has changed plenty down the years but the facts on the ground not so much or enough, and we need more of the latter rather than worrying about the former.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

They don't pass as English. They are English as is Abbott.

Well some Irish people might disagree with you there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and if Abbot thinks that racism against jews is always permissible, presumably because they are white, then she has lost her f***ing mind.

It would be awful if she had said anything like that. But she didn't.

 

[returning_1]

i'm slightly unclear what she is saying. seems she wants to re-define 'racism'. what effects will that have? i doubt it well help anyone in any way

 

[ska invita]

My kids are brown. Why don’t they feel pressure to use skin whitening cream?

Maybe they do feel sensitivity about their skin colour, wrong to presume how people feel about a matter so private.
Above all it is absurd to dismiss clear broad trends in society based on the experience of single individuals.
The concept of 'proximity to whiteness' is real, its not a figment of peoples imagination. The horrific pressure that darker skinned people feel to lighten their skin by a tone is just one manifestation of this.

 

[returning_1]

I think myself that talking about heirachies of racism lessens anti racist solidarity and is usually the mark of a total shit

it's a strange phrase/way of putting it, and i am very sympathetic to what you are saying. some racism is worse, independent of what ethnicity it targets, because it is more extreme, right?

 

[hitmouse]

I was looking at the second graph in the article about institutional racism Black Carribbean and Other Black have highest levels of institutional racism. Roma have it for institutional racism from Police.

Institutional racism in policing , employment, education has persisted. As seen with recent Casey report on Met.

The people most effected by it are Black British people.

Looking at the original report and it is much more nuanced than either Abbot letter or the guardian article that kicked it off

It is worth imo looking at the report findings.

One thing the report is looking at is health inequalities and COVID.

It's arguing against view that higher mortalities in ethnic minority groups are due to cultural issues. What report is saying is that racism does effect health outcomes.

Tbf I find the report more interesting than the media storm about Abbot

I really don't think there was anything particularly wrong with the original Olowade article, what do you think was un-nuanced about that article? (Admittedly, on re-reading it, the bit about "Which also means that more than half of black Caribbean people and two thirds of black African people say they experienced no racist assault. All of this from a survey many have used to conclude that Britain is far from being a racially just society" isn't great, but I don't think it damns the article as a whole.)
I did find it interesting that the results for Other Black were so different to Black African and Caribbean, not sure why that is though. Either way, I think the study makes it clear that GRT people are affected by institutional racism, and I think it was really unhelpful to deny/downplay that.

 

[TopCat]

Maybe they do feel sensitivity about their skin colour, wrong to presume how people feel about a matter so private.
Above all it is absurd to dismiss clear broad trends in society based on the experience of single individuals.
The concept of 'proximity to whiteness' is real, its not a figment of peoples imagination. The horrific pressure that darker skinned people feel to lighten their skin by a tone is just one manifestation of this.

Being sensitive about their skin colour does not equate to feeling pressure to use skin lightening creams.

 

[ska invita]

Being sensitive about their skin colour does not equate to feeling pressure to use skin lightening creams.

equate , no. but people of colour might well secretly wish they were 'whiter' without actually putting that toxic shit on their bodies.

i dont think you are engaging with my posts.

 

[returning_1]

some racism is worse, independent of what ethnicity it targets, because it is more extreme, right

apologies for talking to myself, but in lieu of anyone saying otherwise, i believe that.

and with the caveat that the fact it's not just you will only intensify how bad it is,

 

[Serge Forward]

and if Abbot thinks that racism against jews is always permissible, presumably because they are white, then she has lost her f***ing mind.

like i said, we don't need a separate word for racism that isn't based on "race" just ethnicity.

Where did Abbott say anything like that? She made really stupid comments based on semantics and identity politics. I know that Labour's current movers and shakers, as well as Tories and the right wing media would like to portray her as saying, but it's pure bollocks. Sure, what she wrote was shite, but it was nothing like what you're suggesting.

 

[returning_1]

i've already replied to this.

if she's not being racist then she's redefining racism. "semantics", as you say. i personally don't think they are helpful semantics, but i don't vote anyway.

 

[editor]

I'm absolutely gutted that she's been suspended from the Labour party and I can't wait to see her back, because she's and endless source of entertainment.

Even though I'm White, anti-White racism isn't something I really care about, as it doesn't affect me as there aren't any woke middle class liberals around here.

Where's 'around here,' anti-woke hero? And why are you capitalising 'White'?

 

[emanymton]

The Holocaust was a prime example of racism, by everyday standards or by the standard in use by people that claim that white people can't experience racism. The argument usually goes that racism = bias + power. In Nazi Germany there was bias and there was definitely power. If you read what the Nazis themselves said about it, they considered Jews to be of another race, with clearly defined and identifiable racial characteristics. Then they used every bit of power at their disposal, sometimes prioritizing trains bound for concentration camps over those carrying troops to the front, against them.

I find it hard to call the Holocaust racism, it just seems to be on a whole other level.

 

[TopCat]

Where's 'around here,' anti-woke hero? And why are you capitalising 'White'?

I would hazard a guess from their terminology and general approach that they are an online fascist (as opposed to an on the ground one).

 

[TopCat]

I find it hard to call the Holocaust racism, it just seems to be on a whole other level.

Same shit, highly organised and resourced and crucially ignored for a long time by the allied forces.

 

[editor]

I would hazard a guess from their terminology and general approach that they are an online fascist (as opposed to an on the ground one).

I like to give them a chance to be honest about their beliefs before reaching for the GTFO button.

 

[teqniq]

It's funny how they've gone all quiet since this was pointed out. Normally they're so completely full of themselves they won't shut the fuck up.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Holocaust was a prime example of racism, by everyday standards or by the standard in use by people that claim that white people can't experience racism. The argument usually goes that racism = bias + power. In Nazi Germany there was bias and there was definitely power. If you read what the Nazis themselves said about it, they considered Jews to be of another race, with clearly defined and identifiable racial characteristics. Then they used every bit of power at their disposal, sometimes prioritizing trains bound for concentration camps over those carrying troops to the front, against them.

Yep. The definition that includes power clearly doesn't exclude the Nazis vs Jews. It's exemplified by it.

I fail to see what is gained by this definition that includes power tbh. Not all prejudice is equal, and that has to do with power, but including power in the definition just causes confusion, imo, and inevitably sets up hierarchies of oppression. It's asking one word - racism - to do so much heavy lifting that it breaks.

Also, I would have thought it was better to keep the term racism as something that can be applied anywhere in the world. The prejudice of some Han Chinese towards non-Han Chinese, for example, should be named 'racism'.

 

[maomao]

Abbot's got a history of saying weird things about race going back to the Finnish nurses thing in the 90s. Not keen on her for several reasons but Starmer's reaction is disgusting.