Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

[Gramsci]

Here’s the article she is referring to in her letter: Racism in Britain is not a black and white issue. It’s far more complicated | Tomiwa Owolade

Thanks for posting this. Ive tried to look at the original research. But today the dense academic text is something Im not up for today. Though I will try to give it a go as the authors have made it free to download.

However the reading the Guardian article and one point she appears to make is that some people are using the report in wrong way.

The way I read the high lighted section is that she is saying "many" have used this survey to conclude that Britain is racist society when in her view the fact that half of Black British people of Carribbean background don't report it is sign that Britain is not that racist as the "many" progressives she is critiquing in her article say.

Well that is how i read that paragraph.

Seems a bit problematic to me.

Could be construed as not taking those who do report it seriously.

Perhaps this is something that annoyed Diane Abbot.

It might have been better for Diane Abbot to critique what was said in the original article rather than going on the way she did in her letter to Guardian.

Black Caribbean people, for instance, are more likely than black African people to say they have experienced racism – nearly 50% for black Caribbean people and more than 30% for black African people. Which also means that more than half of black Caribbean people and two thirds of black African people say they experienced no racist assault. All of this from a survey many have used to conclude that Britain is far from being a racially just society.

 

[Gramsci]

Britain ‘not close to being a racially just society’, finds two-year research project

Exclusive: More than a third of people from ethnic and religious minorities have experienced racially motivated assault, data shows

www.theguardian.com

The charts in this article show Black British as most subject to institutional racism in education and employment.

( Black Carribbean in the research definition. Which I have issues with. In my area Brixton most of these people are born here. They are as British as me who is white. It is more correct to say they are Black British with Carribbean background. Perhaps that is what the researchers meant. But its is not clear from looking at the charts)

Institutional racism is something the original Guardian article that Diane Abbot wrote a letter about ignores.

For Black British people the institutional racism is ongoing issue. As example the recent Casey report into the Met shows this.

Perhaps Abbot in her ham fisted way was trying to say this.

 

[sleaterkinney]

She compared it to being a redhead ffs.

 

[Raheem]

I'm not a journalist but I'd want to check that what I was printing was an accurate reflection of someone's views especially if printing something obviously contentious.

If someone sends you a letter, what steps are you supposed to take to check whether it reflects their views?

 

[Wilf]

She compared it to being a redhead ffs.

She didn't exactly do that, though it was fucking stupid to put anything about redheads in a letter about racism. It's the sort of nonsense that idiots on the right come out with.

 

[Gramsci]

She compared it to being a redhead ffs.

So what is your view of the original article that Diane Abbot wrote a letter about?

Seems to me the original Guardian article downplays institutional racism

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm Jewish by blood. I don't regard Jews as a race, and it is a very long time since we were so. Antisemitism is religious discrimination, rather than racial. There are Jews of every hue on the planet. Intermarriage has taken Jews from Middle Eastern to citizens of every continent. Because the faith is passed down on the female side, I'm Jewish, but my daughter isn't.

I'm a non attender at the Church of Scotland, as that was the church I was brought up in.

If you want to hear really vitriolic discussion of religion, toddle off to the Outer Hebrides. The Wee Frees still hold sway, C of S is just about acceptable, but Roman Catholics are the devil incarnate.

I’m just reading this now. I don’t want to spend a lot of time on it at this hour, but I think you’re making the same mistake.

I’ll quote the specific part I want to concentrate on:

I'm Jewish by blood. I don't regard Jews as a race, and it is a very long time since we were so. Antisemitism is religious discrimination, rather than racial.

First of all, let’s clear one thing up: there is one human race. On that level, Jews are not a race. They’re the same race as everyone else: human. Dividing humanity into races is literally what racism is. Race is a construct of racism.

People perceived by racists as belonging to a different race do indeed experience racism. Some very real effects. Sometimes devastating effects.

Jews experienced the ratcheting up of anti Jewish laws in Nazi Germany; the Ghettos; murder; the gas chambers. They were not asked if they were religiously observant. They were racially profiled. The genocide was not a liturgical matter. It was a matter of racism, and that result of racism: race.

This is not a trivial or pedantic point. It’s a matter that saw over 6 million murdered.

So, yes, Jews in Nazi Germany experienced racism. The ideology of the Nazis was a racial ideology.

It is not going to be a comfort to Jews today to be told “antisemitism isn’t racism, it’s religious bigotry”. Because antisemites aren’t going ask them if they’re observant Jews. Antisemites don’t go around wondering if people practise Judaism before deciding how to view them.

This is important. If a member of Parliament is writing to newspapers that “you can’t be racist towards Jews”, then, yes, that’s a problem. That downgrades antisemitism. It’s not so bad. So yes that attitude does have to be called out.

 

[Gromit]

There seems to be a lot of time and energy being expended into brow beating, having semantic arguments, trying to win the biggest victim trophy (no we're more oppressed, no we are), rehashing history (no we were more oppressed, no we were).

I wish this energy could be poured into actually tackling today's prejudice... at all levels.
Poured into thinking of and implementing solutions.
Irrespective of which prejudice is worse. Bad is bad enough. It doesn't need to be worst to be addressed.

Nothing Diane Abbott did, labour did or the people bashing Abbott has done has helped to reduce prejudice. They all care so very much about it but just seem to be bringing more hate into the world. Not less. It's crazy.

 

[The39thStep]

There seems to be a lot of time and energy being expended into brow beating, having semantic arguments, trying to win the biggest victim trophy (no we're more oppressed, no we are), rehashing history (no we were more oppressed, no we were).

I wish this energy could be poured into actually tackling today's prejudice... at all levels.
Poured into thinking of and implementing solutions.
Irrespective of which prejudice is worse. Bad is bad enough. It doesn't need to be worst to be addressed.

Nothing Diane Abbott did, labour did or the people bashing Abbott has done has helped to reduce prejudice. They all care so very much about it but just seem to be bringing more hate into the world. Not less. It's crazy.

I think her response to the article was misinformed and incorrect ,.However, she has fought against racism all her life in a party whose leadership has the temerity to suspend her when their own record on fighting racism against travelers, Jewish people and nonwhite refugees is absolutely dismal. The Labour Party will eat the' left' by talking ' left' but their audience is the right.

 

[strung out]

She’s far from thick, & she’s bloody good at her job on a grassroots level.

What’s your agenda?

He works for the Tory party. It colours everything he posts.

 

[two sheds]

Should just have said the first draft was done by ChatGPT and released without being viewed.

 

[Petcha]

He works for the Tory party. It colours everything he posts.

Haha.. Yep. I work for the Tory party Yes.

 

[strung out]

Haha.. Yep. I work for the Tory party Yes.

Yep

I very rarely venture into my offices but as mentioned above it's a tory agency, with senior former tories running it

 

[LDC]

I think her response to the article was misinformed and incorrect ,.However, she has fought against racism all her life in a party whose leadership has the temerity to suspend her when their own record on fighting racism against travelers, Jewish people and nonwhite refugees is absolutely dismal. The Labour Party will eat the' left' by talking ' left' but their audience is the right.

But isn't that one of the mistakes and problems that many make on this issue; whether someone is simply either racist or not, and often using what they think and/or have done (or their skin colour etc.) to illustrate how 'not racist' they are? Whereas surely the more important point is someone can have fought against racism all their lives, or be a POC, and yet still have some views that are racist?

It was the thing that drove me mad about all this over Corbyn 'lifelong anti-racist can't possibly have anti-semitic views', whereas the complex reality is someone can be an active anti-racist, hate racism, and yet still have questionably or openly racist views in some areas; which importantly (imo) doesn't make them beyond the pale, but does require them to acknowledge them and work to alter them and their understanding.

 

[teqniq]

Rather late to this but my five eggs: what she did was incredibly stupid and the weird apology didn't help much either. It just gave Starmer the opportunity he needed to remove the whip, something he would he would not pass up.

Fantastic example of double standards here:

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Whereas surely the more important point is someone can have fought against racism all their lives, or be a POC, and yet still have some views that are racist?

Indeed. The question I’m wrestling with is the extent to which it’s driven by ignorance, misguided partisan loyalty or just bigotry:

Diane Abbott – A statement from Jewish Voice for Labour

The withdrawal of the whip from Diane Abbott is yet a further attack on our freedom to debate very…

www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk

 

[Agent Sparrow]

This is important. If a member of Parliament is writing to newspapers that “you can’t be racist towards Jews”, then, yes, that’s a problem. That downgrades antisemitism. It’s not so bad. So yes that attitude does have to be called out.

A Black member of parliament. I’m not saying that automatically absolves her but it adds a complexity that isn’t there if a White British MP said it, at least in regards to viewing her own motivations. And as others have said she’s not saying that prejudice and discrimination doesn’t happen, it’s specially a terminology thing.

This is making me think of the Jackie Walker thing, which was even more complex as she was of Jewish heritage herself. But instead of there then being an open conversation about why Black people (and particularly those with mixed heritage) might say such a thing and what lived experiences of marginalisation have led to that; a conversation that would no doubt be challenging but with the potential for understanding and growth on both sides, she was just dismissed.

The fact that Starmer, who is neither Black or Jewish, is doing the expelling and as posted above has given other MPs not associated with the party’s left a second chance, leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

 

[Pickman's model]

A Black member of parliament. I’m not saying that automatically absolves her but it adds a complexity that isn’t there if a White British MP said it, at least in regards to viewing her own motivations. And as others have said she’s not saying that prejudice and discrimination doesn’t happen, it’s specially a terminology thing.

This is making me think of the Jackie Walker thing, which was even more complex as she was of Jewish heritage herself. But instead of there then being an open conversation about why Black people (and particularly those with mixed heritage) might say such a thing and what lived experiences of marginalisation have led to that; a conversation that would no doubt be challenging but with the potential for understanding and growth on both sides, she was just dismissed.

The fact that Starmer, who is neither Black or Jewish, is doing the expelling and as posted above has given other MPs not associated with the party’s left a second chance, leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

All labour mps are equal but some are more equal than others

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

What I'm going to say is really obvious, and it may be behind what she was getting at. Black people can experience racism and prejudice solely because of their colour, whereas white Irish, Jews and other racial or linguistic minorities can pass as English (in this country) much of the time, or are as invisible as the rest of the white population. That doesn't mean the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism around the world never happened, that there was no Irish potato famine, that gypsies themselves weren't decimated by the Holocaust. But in the here and now in the UK it is people of colour who are overwhelmingly on the receiving end of prejudice. I'm of Irish heritage, but only once in my life have I found that problematic, and I was then involved in a political discussion with a squaddie back in the late 1970's.

 

[LDC]

What I'm going to say is really obvious, and it may be behind what she was getting at. Black people can experience racism and prejudice solely because of their colour, whereas white Irish, Jews and other racial or linguistic minorities can pass as English (in this country) much of the time, or are as invisible as the rest of the white population. That doesn't mean the Holocaust and centuries of antisemitism around the world never happened, that there was no Irish potato famine, that gypsies themselves weren't decimated by the Holocaust. But in the here and now in the UK it is people of colour who are overwhelmingly on the receiving end of prejudice. I'm of Irish heritage, but only once in my life have I found that problematic, and I was then involved in a political discussion with a squaddie back in the late 1970's.

I mean there's definitely a discussion to be had...

But given the background of the last years in their party was that 150 word letter to a paper by an MP who's a well-known Corbyn ally the way to discuss it though? I mean clearly not (even if it was a draft which I think unlikely...) and to attempt to do so shows a catastrophic error of judgement or level of idiocy (or self-sabotage?) that makes the party and their leader look like nothing has been learnt, and really leaves the party leader with no choice.

 

[The39thStep]

But isn't that one of the mistakes and problems that many make on this issue; whether someone is simply either racist or not, and often using what they think and/or have done (or their skin colour etc.) to illustrate how 'not racist' they are? Whereas surely the more important point is someone can have fought against racism all their lives, or be a POC, and yet still have some views that are racist?

It was the thing that drove me mad about all this over Corbyn 'lifelong anti-racist can't possibly have anti-semitic views', whereas the complex reality is someone can be an active anti-racist, hate racism, and yet still have questionably or openly racist views in some areas; which importantly (imo) doesn't make them beyond the pale, but does require them to acknowledge them and work to alter them and their understanding.

If , for what ever reason, you took the impression that I am making any excuses for her statement I'd like to reassure you that I wasn't. I also don't believe that the Labour Party leadership has suspended her to illustrate its anti racist credentials to victims of racism.

 

[danny la rouge]

The fact that Starmer, who is neither Black or Jewish, is doing the expelling and as posted above has given other MPs not associated with the party’s left a second chance, leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

As I said in a previous post, I don’t think Starmer is acting in good faith. Almost ever.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I mean there's definitely a discussion to be had...

But given the background of the last years in their party was that 150 word letter to a paper by an MP who's a well-known Corbyn ally the way to discuss it though? I mean clearly not (even if it was a draft which I think unlikely...) and to attempt to do so shows a catastrophic error of judgement or level of idiocy (or self-sabotage?) that makes the party and their leader look like nothing has been learnt, and really leaves the party leader with no choice.

I'm not arguing with you here.

 

[brogdale]

I mean there's definitely a discussion to be had...

But given the background of the last years in their party was that 150 word letter to a paper by an MP who's a well-known Corbyn ally the way to discuss it though? I mean clearly not (even if it was a draft which I think unlikely...) and to attempt to do so shows a catastrophic error of judgement or level of idiocy (or self-sabotage?) that makes the party and their leader look like nothing has been learnt, and really leaves the party leader with no choice.

Basically, this.
I'm late to this story, but it seems to incredibly poor politics to attempt to discuss hierarchies of racism by presuming to know about (or even belittle?) the racism experienced by others.

 

[LDC]

If , for what ever reason, you took the impression that I am making any excuses for her statement I'd like to reassure you that I wasn't. I also don't believe that the Labour Party leadership has suspended her to illustrate its anti racist credentials to victims of racism.

Oh no totally wasn't The39thStep, just commenting on that line that people use.

 

[LDC]

It's all a bit tragic tbh, Labour managing to make itself look a complete basket case again.

 

[StakerOne]

I'm absolutely gutted that she's been suspended from the Labour party and I can't wait to see her back, because she's and endless source of entertainment.

Even though I'm White, anti-White racism isn't something I really care about, as it doesn't affect me as there aren't any woke middle class liberals around here.

 

[muscovyduck]

Everyone loses with this. A "great constituency MP" should know better than to get drawn so deep into arguments in the Guardian that there's the possibility of making a blunder like this? This sort of shit is just posh people Twitter and the cost/benefit on it is only going to be worth it in extreme circumstances.

Clearly in 2023 we're past the point where we'd fall for "any attention on the discussion is good attention" but it does sort of feel like there's some key players involved in it who haven't gotten the memo. I completely understand the nuance of the various arguments going on but as someone who's in one of the ethnic groups dragged into this I'm completely unwilling to have it right now.

These people are getting paid to squabble in the Guardian while the rest of us are dealing with abuse on the street, being taken less seriously by the professionals we interact with in our day to day lives like doctors and accountants, depending on what part of the UK you're in and who you are, getting hounded by the local council for trying to run legitimate businesses and not being able to rent a place to live.

Meanwhile both the Guardian and Dianne Abbott have a profit motive in using these struggles to draw as much attention to themselves as possible regardless of the consequences for anyone else trying to have the same conversation.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just to add, yes Jews can usually “pass as white”, as long as they either anglicise their name, or don’t tell anyone it, and keep quiet about being Jewish.

We aren’t really going to do discrimination top trumps, though, are we?

 

[Tanya1982]

I'm absolutely gutted that she's been suspended from the Labour party and I can't wait to see her back, because she's and endless source of entertainment.

Even though I'm White, anti-White racism isn't something I really care about, as it doesn't affect me as there aren't any woke middle class liberals around here.

Yes, it’s all about you. I love the smell of narcissism in the morning.