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Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

I have never felt less politically engaged than I do right now. It's tragic, I used to be full of energy and ideals and (small or big p) political activity but now, I see no hope of anything any more. This would be easy to ascribe to my age and general cynicism but it's really not that. It's that there is nothing and nobody in any kind of visible politics that is speaking to me. Nobody whose politics I consider worthwhile, or even honest. Literally don't give a fuck what happens next.

I'm not proud of this btw, it's a strange and uncomfortable place for me to be, but here I am and I know I'm not alone. The real challenge IMO for any political organisation at this point is to (re-)engage people who feel as I do, and who perhaps did not feel like this before about 2016/2017, and persuade me to vote for something.
 
I have never felt less politically engaged than I do right now. It's tragic, I used to be full of energy and ideals and (small or big p) political activity but now, I see no hope of anything any more. This would be easy to ascribe to my age and general cynicism but it's really not that. It's that there is nothing and nobody in any kind of visible politics that is speaking to me. Nobody whose politics I consider worthwhile, or even honest. Literally don't give a fuck what happens next.
Couldn't agree more. All hope has been beaten out of me. They're all pricks and the ones that aren't are being systematically removed.
 
I do get the argument, and have made it myself in the past, but I'm really not sure I'm that bothered now if the Sunak shit-show continues or we get Blair Mark 2.

I would - and did - vote Labour with Corbyn in charge. Flawed as he was, he represented a hope for genuine change, and I returned to voting for the first time since Blair. Starmer represents a guarantee of no genuine change. And I return to being entirely disenfranchised, however I vote.

ETA:
fwiw I think the best result at the next election would be a hung parliament.
Well there’s a lot of lamp posts on the Embankment….slightly radical mind…
 
a labour win will encourage starmer to think he's done the correct thing in getting more right wing. a labour loss will encourage starmer to think he hasn't got right wing enough yet.
I think this is right. Heads I win, Tails you lose.

It's one of the reasons why I prefer a hung parliament. If Starmer is to get in, I would want him to be weak and reliant on maintaining a fragile alliance (including inside his own party) to remain in power.
 
Most of all I'd wish for record low turnout. The ramifications of falling turnouts are the only way we might see anything really change, but I wouldn't expect it'd be pretty.
 
One thing that hasn't really been mentioned are the MPs. Admittedly if he gets in Starmer is going to use the whip ruthlessly to get stuff through.Admittedly any Labour MPs with potential backbone will have been got rid of. I can't see them being as actually rabid as the next lot of headbanger tory MPs though.

As lbj, my preference is for a weak Labour government. He'll no doubt lay the blame to his enemies on the left. But strong Labour vote is going to go to Starmer's head.
 
Most of all I'd wish for record low turnout. The ramifications of falling turnouts are the only way we might see anything really change, but I wouldn't expect it'd be pretty.
Politicians don't care about low turnouts per se. If a low turnout means they win, they're more than happy with it. I don't think there would be any ramifications tbh, aside from some media campaign with celebrities to get people to vote next time.
 
Both tbh. I mean dutifully turning out to vote for them no matter what, nothing would lose Labour their vote however much contempt for them they show.
as opposed to the revolutionary left dutifully refusing to turn out to vote against the tories nomatter what, nothing would lose the tories their vote ... etc etc.

So taking out 5 minutes (for postal vote at least) to vote against a right-wing government makes someone liberal nomatter what else they do or believe? We need to add that to the list of definitions of 'liberal'.
 
as opposed to the revolutionary left dutifully refusing to turn out to vote against the tories nomatter what, nothing would lose the tories their vote ... etc etc.

So taking out 5 minutes (for postal vote at least) to vote against a right-wing government makes someone liberal nomatter what else they do or believe? We need to add that to the list of definitions of 'liberal'.
If you're arguing neither has a good strategy I agree with you.

I just find it funny that obsessive loyalty to the Labour Party for no reward is apparently gritty pragmatism and anything else is starry eyed fantasy.
 
So, that’s what you are not doing. What are you doing for 2024/5?
See, that's where you parliament junkies go wrong. The fact that you can't conceive of much beyond sticking a cross on a ballot paper every few years just goes to show your distinct lack of political imagination. For the record, I'm currently burnt out after years of shitloads of political, union and local community activity. So I'm having a break and personally writing off 2023, aside maybe from union stuff. For 2024/5, I expect to be back to helping organise all kinds of stuff where I live and work.

Vote Labour if you like, it's no skin off my nose if you want to endorse such an anti-worker, pro-boss, institutionally racist organisation. But don't be surprised when the fuckers just continue all the shit from where the Tories left off.
 
Yes there I'd agree, but I don't think anyone here is showing obsessive loyalty to the Labour Party.
Well then it goes back to what I said, what's the price for their vote? Apparently nothing - that's some loyalty. Starmer couldn't have been clearer he doesn't want their vote and they'll still vote for him 😁
 
See, that's where you parliament junkies go wrong. The fact that you can't conceive of much beyond sticking a cross on a ballot paper every few years just goes to show your distinct lack of political imagination. For the record, I'm currently burnt out after years of shitloads of political, union and local community activity. So I'm having a break and personally writing off 2023, aside maybe from union stuff. For 2024/5, I expect to be back to helping organise all kinds of stuff where I live and work.

Vote Labour if you like, it's no skin off my nose if you want to endorse such an anti-worker, pro-boss, institutionally racist organisation. But don't be surprised when the fuckers just continue all the shit from where the Tories left off.

I can conceive of far more. And have also spent years in activism thanks very much.

Just because we don’t regard ideological purity in the same way as you smug professional revolutionaries doesn’t actually make us worse than you. Anyway I’ll leave you to your castles in the air.

But a your post is a great example of the kind of ideological arrogance that means you regard 30 people as a mass movement ….😀
 
Well then it goes back to what I said, what's the price for their vote? Apparently nothing - that's some loyalty. Starmer couldn't have been clearer he doesn't want their vote and they'll still vote for him 😁
Sunak couldn't be clearer that that you and I and all the poor people in the country are worthless and you still won't vote against him. Pointless this sneery shit, isn't it :)

I'm going to vote or not vote according to how I see things at the time. I assume you will do the same. I quite understand why someone wouldn't vote. I'm puzzled as to why voting to try to stop the tories gaining power would be sneered at.
 
If you're arguing neither has a good strategy I agree with you.

I just find it funny that obsessive loyalty to the Labour Party for no reward is apparently gritty pragmatism and anything else is starry eyed fantasy.
Why do people keep making these absurd characterisations? I dont' see anyone here that is 'obsessively' loyal to the party. This is just pragmatism. Where did you ever read that to vote for someone is to be 'obsessively loyal'? Don't think it was Marx
 
One thing that hasn't really been mentioned are the MPs. Admittedly if he gets in Starmer is going to use the whip ruthlessly to get stuff through.Admittedly any Labour MPs with potential backbone will have been got rid of. I can't see them being as actually rabid as the next lot of headbanger tory MPs though.

As lbj, my preference is for a weak Labour government. He'll no doubt lay the blame to his enemies on the left. But strong Labour vote is going to go to Starmer's head.
We were told the 80 tory majority would deliver a strong government. But we've seen over the past 4 years how weak that government is. Any labour government will similarly be weak while believing itself strong. Should labour win backbench mps will want to see the fruits of victory not some tepid tory shite. Shammer is in for a shock if labour win: and if labour lose.
 
Sunak couldn't be clearer that that you and I and all the poor people in the country are worthless and you still won't vote against him. Pointless this sneery shit, isn't it :)

I'm going to vote or not vote according to how I see things at the time. I assume you will do the same. I quite understand why someone wouldn't vote. I'm puzzled as to why voting to try to stop the tories gaining power would be sneered at.
Who is sneering at people for voting? I was mocking a very specific superior attitude of a tiny number of people.
 
Sunak couldn't be clearer that that you and I and all the poor people in the country are worthless and you still won't vote against him. Pointless this sneery shit, isn't it :)

I'm going to vote or not vote according to how I see things at the time. I assume you will do the same. I quite understand why someone wouldn't vote. I'm puzzled as to why voting to try to stop the tories gaining power would be sneered at.
Because you're voting to give Labour power, which is a really big mistake
 
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