nino_savatte
No pasaran!
What a ridiculous question.
Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.
- Thread starter trashpony
- Start date
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Especially if they're left-wing Jews.Not forgetting that Labour members are many times more likely to be investigated, sanctioned or expelled for antisemitism ... if they're Jewish.
The Jews Expelled from Labour over Antisemitism
Do you know how elections work? I feel like I'm talking to someone who just got old enough to follow Novara Media on TikTok.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Better?
Barrister Forde: Labour Party has ignored my report on racism
Visit the post for more.
insidecroydon.com
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
So your argument, if that's what it can be called, is that Labour are slightly less racist than the Tories? I'm old enough to remember the Wilson-Callaghan years. That government failed to lift a finger to confront the far-right. The current Labour Party is doing its best to pander to white supremacists.
Grow up.
Last edited:
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Because it's irrational. Clearly Labour have issues internally. But that isn't really the point. Do you think the Tories will be better for you on creating a safe society for minorities/POC? IF so, there's your vote
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
What do feelings have to do with it? Either the claim is true or false.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
If you're trying to convince me to vote for Starmer's Labour, you're not doing a very good job.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Plenty.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It's clearly easier for someone who is not white or, indeed, not male to reach a high ranking position within Tory Party in Parliament than it is for a woman or person of colour to do the same in the Parliamentary Labour Party.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not irrational. We have an absurd electoral system in which people are guilted into voting for one party not because of who they are but because of who they are not. Where are we allowed to set our limits in this participation? Are we allowed to set any limits?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I'd advise you to look up the word "irrational". Worse, you then offer me a false dichotomy. Just wow.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Don't know about Karl Masks, but I'm certainly not trying to convince you (or anyone) to vote for Starmer's Labour, nor am I arguing that Starmer's Labour party isn't racist in any way.
What I am saying is that the particular piece you seem to be citing as evidence that what's behind Diane Abbott's treatment is racism or "white privilege" doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Abbott's treatment isn't just down to racism, clearly. Misogyny is also involved.
teqniq
DisMembered
It's clearly OK to hold unpleasant prejudices regardless of your own ethnicity so long as you're on the neoliberal right of the party, you will be welcomed back with open arms after a suitable spell of penitence which, you understand was only for cosmetic purposes as far as the current management is concerned. If you are on the left however it is an entirely different matter.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not even that Abbott has expressed unpleasant prejudices. She wrote a letter expressing an idea. Clumsily expressing the idea, which IMO is a very flawed idea but is just an idea that can be discussed.
She was unbelievably naive to write the letter. She should have known it would be used against her. But compared to the actual antisemitic prejudice expressed by those talking about shekels etc, what she did was really nothing at all.
Those messages calling her repulsive from nino's link? They stink of racism and misogyny.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Of course you do. No-one wants to give up on fondly-held illusions. Nevertheless, it's been the trend for several decades now. We're currently at the stage, at this very moment, of lefties advocating the vote for a man who refuses to say he'll stop putting (poor/brown) migrants on prison barges. That's how bad this "least worst" shit has gotten. At what point does reluctantly signing off on it become complicity, when they're shooting holes in the boats?
Yes, by turning them into culture war issues and moving rightwards. They aren't trying to outflank Labour to the fucking left, are they.
Last edited:
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
So again, what is your alternative for 2024 /2025? Not being snippy asking what YOUR alternative is for 2024/2025?and replace them with slightly kinder-voiced Tories? Great.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
You keep asking what we do instead, but that would imply what you're offering is an option, rather than a stitch-up.
And you know what the answer is ffs, we've all had this conversation 1,000 times over. It's just difficult and bigger than an individual can manage alone so you don't want to hear it. What you want is to think you can make a difference by taking a short walk and planting a cross once every few years. But that's not how it works. Manifestly that's not how it works, because the accelerated decline of working class living standards and rightwards lurch has all taken place directly in the wake of extra-Parliamentary working class mobilisation having been crushed when voting became "the only option".
Last edited:
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
That's because no one ever answers.
We have had this conversation 1000s of times over and no one ever answers or addresses the things, flawed, corrupt, reformist, right wing 'red tory' labour governments have delivered for working people. I'm not even a Labour Party member at the moment and I really don't like Kier Starmer (Or Shamer as oh so revolutionary posters insist on calling him, which is really sticking it to the Man).
So what is YOUR course of action for 2024/2025?
Last edited:
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Oh fuck off, you've been answered plenty across dozens of threads. You've been pointed to essays, books, entire websites. There's threads on every conceivable campaign, community and workplace approach, quite a few which you've been on.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
Surely it matters why these MP's are being targeted or your concerns are going to be based on irrational fears and not what is actually happening? I can understand why you might feel that way, but if it isn't true then what?
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
YOu are allowed to vote for whowever you like or not at all. But that is just a trivial fact. It doesn't get us anywhere. I'm not preventing you from doing anything. I'm just the voice on the scren. But if one's basis for claiming that labour is racist is entirely subjective and not supported by facts, that would be definitioally irrational
Clearly there are questions for Labour to answer re: a hierarchy of racism within. It is a deeply flawed institution. But, given where we are and who the alternative is, it doesn't convince me they aren't the better choice. This iMO is where the discourse needs to be, and not in idealised versions of parties that don't exist or in sacrificing whatever concessions Labour may offer over what the Tories will take away.
All of this is theory. It isn't representing what is happening and where we will be by the time there's an election. Alternatives just don't exist
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Voting is not an alternative. Ffs this is the absolute heart of the thing. If I'm drowning and someone suggests I swim 10ft to the right rather than 15ft I'm still drowning, shouting "but what's the alternative" and then shitting on people saying "we need to find a way out of the water rather than pissing about swimming hither and thither" is meaningless. Even if no ideas for solutions existed at all (and this isn't the case, lack of execution doesn't = lack of options) it'd still be meaningless.
Last edited:
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
The problem here is that there is no alternative on the table to voting because the system exists. It's a shit system. FPTP is shit. The parties are shit. There are no ideal choices. But a choice will be made, either with our consent, in what small way we can give, or without it. Right wing voters, tory supporters, will vote. They think it matters, which means we have to.
If the alternratives to voting were on the table that would be great. But there aren't going to be general strikes, people rioting, civil disobedience etc. So I'm not sure where that leaves us if we don't vote at all.
I don't think anyone is arguing we need to gind a way out of the water, but until a way is found the water still exists
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
I don't really know what this means, it just sounds like conspiracy theory. Like when people say "the MSM are out to get you"
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Rob Ray isnt saying anything complicated, but you can use a dictionary to help you understand the words you're having difficulty with.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How do you know what will or won't occur in the future?
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Again, please do fuck off with that, I'm not talking about some Illuminati bollocks I'm talking about the broad spectrum of what the ruling classes want to achieve (and have done since year dot), with variations in how they think it's easiest to get there. Neoliberalism was one means to that end, social conservativism is another - split and exploit the working class, keep the status quo stable.
The method by which they do this in terms of The Vote is to lobby and capture politicians and their support networks (as we have seen happening in Labour) in order to make sure the general trend is in their favour. Within that process there can be minor variation (Labour vs Tory), but the ratchet effect of "least worst/hard decisions" ensures long-term success because the overall direction is never challenged.
Similar threads
