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Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

ouirdeaux said:
bimble above somewhere couldn't decide if the comment was racist or stupid. It is well to remember that racism is a subset of stupidity, and the latter can take many forms.
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That's just so wrong on so many levels. It depoliticises racism for one one thing and removes context. It also leaving you saying that human stupidity goes up and down over time as societies display more or less racism.
 
yeah, stupid doesn't work as an explanation of racism not really, i wish it did tbh. The most recent time i got sort of racism'd (verbal thing i was sat there and she started going on about what the jews are like) it really wasn't someone i could call a stupid person, that would be too easy and too charitable an explanation.
 
ouirdeaux said:
bimble above somewhere couldn't decide if the comment was racist or stupid. It is well to remember that racism is a subset of stupidity, and the latter can take many forms.

Academics distinguish between racism, which is fundamental to a particular society, and prejudice, which any member of any group can display towards any other. How much merit there is in this distinction can be debated, but it is spectacularly unwise for a politician to get involved in this debate. What you say isn't as important as what people hear, and she should realise that a lot of people are going to take away from this 'Diane Abbott said that only white people are bad, black people are angels'.
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which academics? are you sure there is this consensus?
 
Dom Traynor said:
I've always wondered whether the support Diane Abbott gets from white lefties is in itself racist, because they don't know (and can't be bothered to know) any of the other Black British leaders who are far more articulate, thoughtful and successful at moving towards the goal than her.

Tbh I sympathize, I will not be criticising her anywhere other than here. But still.
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Can you name these leaders?

I for one as I suppose a White Lefty- of a reformist sort- would name George Padmore as one. Lived in UK for a while.

Going back a few years so probably his writings are dated.

As a contemporary of CLR James he was highly critical of the Labour party of its time ( 30s and 40s) and the Stalinist Communist line which changed when up against Fascism.

Padmore left the Stalinist Communist International when it changed its line on Imperialism. Seeming to say there were good Imperialists and bad Fascist one,

In many articles he argued that British Imperialism was just as brutal and racist as Fascism.

His writings on the relationship between Class and anti colonialism / racism whilst dated have something to say to present day.

There were a generation of Black Leaders who whilst critical of the mainstream Labour movement tried to forge a politics that linked the international plight of the "toilers of the world" whatever there colour. The enemy being international Capitalism.

I think the lesson from Black leaders such as Padmore is that rather than parochial arguments Internationalism and solidarity between Black and White working class was the key.

Unlike CLR James Padmore was not a Trotskyite. But moved to a position of Internationalism with colonial struggles being at forefront of move to world rid of exploitation / capitalism

And unlike way race is seen now he put class and race together.

Sorry Ive been reading up on British Empire and his name crops up a lot.

Someone who has been largely forgotten.
 
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Rob Ray said:
Day seven of the left paper front-paging people frothing at a backbench MP when it's not even a slow news day ...

www.theguardian.com

Keir Starmer says he was ‘shocked’ by Diane Abbott’s letter to the Observer

Labour leader ‘could not believe what he was reading’ when he saw letter saying Jewish, Irish and Traveller people not subject to racism
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Observer though....they've been storing it up all week...Observer's only use is to see explicitly what message the Labour right press team want to signal
 
Further to my post yesterday here is Kenan Malik on the Abbot letter, the collapse of effective anti racist politics and the inherent and disabling division of identity politics and its logical consequences.

He also calls out the opportunism and identical bigotry of many of her critics.

He’s spot on.

“Antiracists recognised that different groups were freighted with different experiences and that the racism faced by Jewish, Irish and African-Caribbean people was often distinct. They also recognised that to challenge racism one had to overcome the divisions it created. Hence, they worked to coalesce those different experiences into a common struggle; and one that was intimately interwoven with broader movements for social justice and working-class betterment.”

www.theguardian.com

Diane Abbott’s letter shows how antiracism has been reduced to decrying ‘white privilege’ | Kenan Malik

Many of the Labour politician’s fiercest critics pursue an equally divisive approach
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Further to my post yesterday here is Kenan Malik on the Abbot letter, the collapse of effective anti racist politics and the inherent and disabling division of identity politics and its logical consequences.

He also calls out the opportunism and identical bigotry of many of her critics.

He’s spot on.

“Antiracists recognised that different groups were freighted with different experiences and that the racism faced by Jewish, Irish and African-Caribbean people was often distinct. They also recognised that to challenge racism one had to overcome the divisions it created. Hence, they worked to coalesce those different experiences into a common struggle; and one that was intimately interwoven with broader movements for social justice and working-class betterment.”

www.theguardian.com

Diane Abbott’s letter shows how antiracism has been reduced to decrying ‘white privilege’ | Kenan Malik

Many of the Labour politician’s fiercest critics pursue an equally divisive approach
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Absolutely.
 
On Kenan Malik - the White Supremacy way of looking at race is the new common sense of anti racism. Agree with Malik on this.

Its divisive and stops building bridges with different groups. Recently at a public meeting a local Cllr - Black and on right of party - had to tell part of the audience that local services were for all residents of my borough. As some of the local Black people in audience had been referring to the service as "Ours".

Im no fan of my local Labour Council at times but I was so glad that my local Cllr got up to say this.

Defending and lobbying Council about a local service should imo mean that different parts of the community can come together on this.

Part of problem in my area is that Whiteness is associated with gentrification. However lack of affordable housing / being priced out/ cost of local services in an area affects both white and black working class.
 
Gramsci said:
On Kenan Malik - the White Supremacy way of looking at race is the new common sense of anti racism. Agree with Malik on this.

Its divisive and stops building bridges with different groups. Recently at a public meeting a local Cllr - Black and on right of party - had to tell part of the audience that local services were for all residents of my borough. As some of the local Black people in audience had been referring to the service as "Ours".

Im no fan of my local Labour Council at times but I was so glad that my local Cllr got up to say this.

Defending and lobbying Council about a local service should imo mean that different parts of the community can come together on this.

Part of problem in my area is that Whiteness is associated with gentrification. However lack of affordable housing / being priced out/ cost of local services in an area affects both white and black working class.
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How did the local councillor know that "our" didn't mean working class? Genuine question as a couple of years ago at a community meeting here in New Zealand a Samoan community leader apologised to me (the only White person in the room) because people kept talking about "our people" and "our services" and I said no need to apologise as I assumed they meant working class people and services which was met by hearty agreement by the audience...

To answer the question you asked me above (and thanks for the Padmore reference by the way, I had never heard of him before) I was thinking of people like the rising union leaders of the last few years, who quietly toil away for all working class people like Roger MacKenzie and Ravi Subramainian at UNISON, Bill Morris at Unite, Wanda Wyporska who used to be at one of the teaching unions and newer Black Labour activists and MPs that anyone who cares to can name... I mean there are literally countless Black leaders in the UK who knock the socks off Abbott intellectually and practically. They're too classy to criticise her publicaly of course.
 
Dom Traynor said:
How did the local councillor know that "our" didn't mean working class? Genuine question as a couple of years ago at a community meeting here in New Zealand a Samoan community leader apologised to me (the only White person in the room) because people kept talking about "our people" and "our services" and I said no need to apologise as I assumed they meant working class people and services which was met by hearty agreement by the audience...

To answer the question you asked me above (and thanks for the Padmore reference by the way, I had never heard of him before) I was thinking of people like the rising union leaders of the last few years, who quietly toil away for all working class people like Roger MacKenzie and Ravi Subramainian at UNISON, Bill Morris at Unite, Wanda Wyporska who used to be at one of the teaching unions and newer Black Labour activists and MPs that anyone who cares to can name... I mean there are literally countless Black leaders in the UK who knock the socks off Abbott intellectually and practically. They're too classy to criticise her publicaly of course.
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I could see it.Was glad my Cllr picked up on it

Im agreeing with Maliks article in Guardian. Which I see a lot of posters here liked This for example rings true to me

As hopes for social change have eroded, many have clung ever more fiercely to their own communities as places of safety and shelter. The more one hunkers down in separate laagers, the more the laager becomes the only way through which to perceive the world, and the bigger one’s race or identity looms in one’s consciousness. Antiracism has come to be more fragmented, more inward looking and viewed more as a kind of zero-sum struggle in which the interests of one group are set off against those of another
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I would not say that this is necessarily how everyone sees it. But it's something I come across.

Padmore I didn't know about until recently when I started to read more on British Empire.

Mainly wrote articles and pamphlets


Slightly criticising Malik I'd say at the time of Padmore some of these debates about race and class were going on in 30s and 40s. So it's not new in that sense. However I would say that in time of Padmore there was more optimism for social change.

Also Padmore and others were pioneers. There work was not widely circulated in mainstream press Small left papers printed them.

Fair enough with the list of people you posted up. Yes agree a lot of people quietly get on with important work
 
Gramsci said:
I could see it.Was glad my Cllr picked up on it

Im agreeing with Maliks article in Guardian. Which I see a lot of posters here liked This for example rings true to me



I would not say that this is necessarily how everyone sees it. But it's something I come across.

Padmore I didn't know about until recently when I started to read more on British Empire.

Mainly wrote articles and pamphlets


Slightly criticising Malik I'd say at the time of Padmore some of these debates about race and class were going on in 30s and 40s. So it's not new in that sense. However I would say that in time of Padmore there was more optimism for social change.

Also Padmore and others were pioneers. There work was not widely circulated in mainstream press Small left papers printed them.

Fair enough with the list of people you posted up. Yes agree a lot of people quietly get on with important work
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They were certainly going on in the 80s, that I personally remember. Malik himself was involved in Workers Against Racism

Back then, "Black" generally meant non-white, all people of colour, everyone subject to racism.

Now that, as Malik says, many seem to have retreated into their own specific ethnic communities, Black seems frequently to mean people of specifically African descent, with everyone else's experiences of racism downplayed at best and dismissed altogether at worst.
 
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And now:

Diane-master-a.jpg

Save our Diane! New petition to reinstate legendary MP
 
danny la rouge said:
I’ve been at band practice, so a bit behind. And to be honest I’m not sure I can gather the strength to read through the thread. Because, you know, priorities.

But the letter literally makes a racist argument. Does that mean I think Abbott is A Racist? Not really. I think she’s fallen into an identity politics trap and she’s not really got the intellectual rigour to work out what went wrong.

Do I think LBJ should be cancelled? Nope. I just disagree with him about a daft letter by an accident prone politician.

Do I think Starmer is acting in good faith? Almost never.
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What makes you say that? She went to a grammar school and then to Cambridge and went on to the civil service fast track scheme. That would indicate she's more capable of intellectual rigour than the average person.
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
What makes you say that? She went to a grammar school and then to Cambridge and went on to the civil service fast track scheme. That would indicate she's more capable of intellectual rigour than the average person.
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I disagree with the premise that people who went to Cambridge are necessarily more capable of intellectual rigour than the average person.
 
PR1Berske said:
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Ended up in the not a fan camp of DA and don't have a scooby about the internals of the Labour Party so won't comment. However, at 69 and with health problems has she considered changing the colour of the leather she sits on. With over 40 years of public service to draw on probably an asset to the checking chamber (just as long as it not maths)
 
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