Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Marty1 made the occasional interesting post tho
Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.
- Thread starter trashpony
- Start date
wemakeyousoundb
hopefully not gimboid
the blockchain keep churning them outNot all massive bellends are returners - it might seem as though we've had them all at one time or another but there's a pretty big supply out there.
/takes coat
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
"Diane Abbott – A statement from Jewish Voice for Labour
Sunday 23 April 2023
(Source: Getty Images)
The withdrawal of the whip from Diane Abbott is yet a further attack on our freedom to debate very important issues in the Labour party. Her original letter was not antisemitic and the way some critics have rounded on her as if it were is cynical and unhelpful.
As a prominent Black Labour MP she cannot avoid discussing the way Black and Asian people are in the frontline of racist oppression – and the way the Black experience has been downplayed in the Labour Party. This was identified by Martin Forde in his report as a hierarchy of racism. The wording of Diane’s letter was unfortunate in that it appeared to compare forms of racism. Diane has rightly apologised for this.
All racism is abhorrent – and she has always fought against it. Historically Jews have been major victims – most notoriously in the time of the Holocaust. As Diane says in her tweeted apology, “Racism takes many forms and it is completely undeniable that Jewish people have suffered its monstrous effects, as have Irish people, Travellers and many others.”
The fight against racism today – certainly in this country – is centred on defence of Black and Asian people. This in no way discounts the experience of Jews. Jewish people in this country of course face prejudice and racism, in particular the Haredim, who in their dress are highly visible, but it is not institutional, structural racism that fundamentally affects their prospects and outcomes.
Yes, Diane’s letter should have been drafted with more care – but this is no ground for suspension from the Parliamentary Labour Party."
Sunday 23 April 2023
(Source: Getty Images)
The withdrawal of the whip from Diane Abbott is yet a further attack on our freedom to debate very important issues in the Labour party. Her original letter was not antisemitic and the way some critics have rounded on her as if it were is cynical and unhelpful.
As a prominent Black Labour MP she cannot avoid discussing the way Black and Asian people are in the frontline of racist oppression – and the way the Black experience has been downplayed in the Labour Party. This was identified by Martin Forde in his report as a hierarchy of racism. The wording of Diane’s letter was unfortunate in that it appeared to compare forms of racism. Diane has rightly apologised for this.
All racism is abhorrent – and she has always fought against it. Historically Jews have been major victims – most notoriously in the time of the Holocaust. As Diane says in her tweeted apology, “Racism takes many forms and it is completely undeniable that Jewish people have suffered its monstrous effects, as have Irish people, Travellers and many others.”
The fight against racism today – certainly in this country – is centred on defence of Black and Asian people. This in no way discounts the experience of Jews. Jewish people in this country of course face prejudice and racism, in particular the Haredim, who in their dress are highly visible, but it is not institutional, structural racism that fundamentally affects their prospects and outcomes.
Yes, Diane’s letter should have been drafted with more care – but this is no ground for suspension from the Parliamentary Labour Party."
ska invita
back on the other side
thats great"Diane Abbott – A statement from Jewish Voice for Labour
Sunday 23 April 2023
(Source: Getty Images)
The withdrawal of the whip from Diane Abbott is yet a further attack on our freedom to debate very important issues in the Labour party. Her original letter was not antisemitic and the way some critics have rounded on her as if it were is cynical and unhelpful.
As a prominent Black Labour MP she cannot avoid discussing the way Black and Asian people are in the frontline of racist oppression – and the way the Black experience has been downplayed in the Labour Party. This was identified by Martin Forde in his report as a hierarchy of racism. The wording of Diane’s letter was unfortunate in that it appeared to compare forms of racism. Diane has rightly apologised for this.
All racism is abhorrent – and she has always fought against it. Historically Jews have been major victims – most notoriously in the time of the Holocaust. As Diane says in her tweeted apology, “Racism takes many forms and it is completely undeniable that Jewish people have suffered its monstrous effects, as have Irish people, Travellers and many others.”
The fight against racism today – certainly in this country – is centred on defence of Black and Asian people. This in no way discounts the experience of Jews. Jewish people in this country of course face prejudice and racism, in particular the Haredim, who in their dress are highly visible, but it is not institutional, structural racism that fundamentally affects their prospects and outcomes.
Yes, Diane’s letter should have been drafted with more care – but this is no ground for suspension from the Parliamentary Labour Party."
has anyone else comes across anything similiar from other voices?
GarveyLives
Well-Known Member
"Caribbean Labour Solidarity - Solidarity with our friend and comrade Diane Abbott
(Source: as stated in image)
Caribbean Labour Solidarity stands in solidarity with our friend and comrade Diane Abbott. Diane has a record second to none in publicly opposing racism, antisemitism and xenophobia. We have stood beside her on demonstrations against racism and in defence of immigrant workers. We recall in particular her wholehearted support of the Stansted 15’s practical attempt to stop the illegal deportation of asylum seekers.
Whether you agree with the formulation of Diane’s letter to the Guardian or not, we must be clear that this is not the real issue at stake here. She has been suspended from the Labour Party for being a socialist who opposes the class-collaborationist position of the Starmer leadership. We may wish to discuss with Diane the terms in which we discuss the nature of racism, we do not doubt her commitment to the struggle against racism in all its manifestations. We cannot say the same about Keir Starmer. She has apologised and withdrawn the statement. Let that be the end of the matter. We demand that she be reinstated forthwith."
(Source: as stated in image)
Caribbean Labour Solidarity stands in solidarity with our friend and comrade Diane Abbott. Diane has a record second to none in publicly opposing racism, antisemitism and xenophobia. We have stood beside her on demonstrations against racism and in defence of immigrant workers. We recall in particular her wholehearted support of the Stansted 15’s practical attempt to stop the illegal deportation of asylum seekers.
Whether you agree with the formulation of Diane’s letter to the Guardian or not, we must be clear that this is not the real issue at stake here. She has been suspended from the Labour Party for being a socialist who opposes the class-collaborationist position of the Starmer leadership. We may wish to discuss with Diane the terms in which we discuss the nature of racism, we do not doubt her commitment to the struggle against racism in all its manifestations. We cannot say the same about Keir Starmer. She has apologised and withdrawn the statement. Let that be the end of the matter. We demand that she be reinstated forthwith."
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
It very much is the issue at stake here.
I would suggest that this is merely a happy by-product for Starmer et al.
She has disassociated herself from her own statement. This is not the same as providing clarity for her comments or suggesting that she has realsied that they are wrong and why.
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Have to agree with Smokeandsteam here.
Just because the opponents of the Labour left are using this to their advantage doesn’t mean there is nothing to answer. This is the reaction of the Labour left every time, and it needs to look at itself and try to achieve some degree of self awareness.
Just because the opponents of the Labour left are using this to their advantage doesn’t mean there is nothing to answer. This is the reaction of the Labour left every time, and it needs to look at itself and try to achieve some degree of self awareness.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
I think this is probably right. However I'm not sure what she could have said that would have helped after the fact. It's not like if she gave a response explaining her position with complexity and nuance it would have been taken and discussed in good faith*. Whatever valid points she had would still have been drowned out by the heckling press. The end result would still look like this.
*bar articles in media with tiny readerships and one opinion piece in the Guardian practically side by side by another piece in the Guardian saying the opposite.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
In a sense, I agree with both this post and the Caribbean Labour statement, which is a sign of the fucked up place the left is in. The left, the trot left certainly and a few others have a real problem with antisemitism, something that doesn't need spelling out here. But then, equally, Starmer et al have made absolutist responses to Abbot and Corbyn the single most way of making a break from the Corbyn years (and social democracy). And with that, their own response to racism becomes a flattened, almost depoliticised thing, a thing that's barely linked to any kind of anti-racism, just a way of saying 'look, I'm not Corbyn'. Labour doesn't only shift further to the right, it shifts into nothingness - I mean, what will Labour actually be saying to voters at the next election?
None of that is defending Abbot's formulations or, before that Corbyn's failures around antisemitism. It's just that every response shifts the party away from being either an anti-racist or even social democratic party.
bimble
floofy
What do you think is great about that statement? Just looks like a mess to me.
ouirdeaux
Caring, Understanding, Non-judgemental Type
What it's always said, ever since I can remember: We're not the Tories.
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
Ironically, it reads a bit like a first draft to me.
ska invita
back on the other side
ive spelt out my thoughts on this thread at some length - i think the statement reflects them
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the same could be said of the former New Labour leader of my local Council Lambeth who rose to be an MP and is now Shadow Secretary of State for Justice.
His anti semitic remark about a Jew did not do his political career any harm
He just said sorry and everything moved on.
insidecroydon.com
And he did use the trope of Puppet Masters.
I mean how is it the right of the party can get away with this with a slap on the wrist.
This guy is going to be a Cabinet member when Labour win next election.
Could it be he that he has a long political career as supporting the Third Way New Labour politics?
His anti semitic remark about a Jew did not do his political career any harm
He just said sorry and everything moved on.
The billionaire ex-porn baron, the antisemitic trope and the MP
The publication of the report on antisemitism in the Labour Party saw Jeremy Corbyn suspended for his response. But it has also led to calls for further punishments – including for Croydon No…
insidecroydon.com
And he did use the trope of Puppet Masters.
I mean how is it the right of the party can get away with this with a slap on the wrist.
This guy is going to be a Cabinet member when Labour win next election.
Could it be he that he has a long political career as supporting the Third Way New Labour politics?
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
And this Cllr is still a Cllr. Also a member of the Labour group Cabinet in my patch Lambeth
Lambeth is run by the Right of the party and has been for years.
Presently Deputy Cabinet member for business.
Anti semitism did not do his career in local polltics any harm in the long term. He got a post in the ruling Labour group Cabinet. He is no back bench Labour Cllr.
Lambeth is run by the Right of the party and has been for years.
Presently Deputy Cabinet member for business.
Anti semitism did not do his career in local polltics any harm in the long term. He got a post in the ruling Labour group Cabinet. He is no back bench Labour Cllr.
Labour councillor probed over anti-Semitic Facebook post
Irfan Mohammad is to be investigated by the Labour Party over a post he shared on Facebook in 2015.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I have very mixed feeling about Diane Abbot.
Whilst not my MP on issues like Windrush she has been a stalwart for the community she represents.
She has been subject to a lot of abuse. And I feel there is an unpleasant side to the glee some get about her being pulled down.
On her letter. It did not suprise me. Being involved in local community issues in inner London and race comes up.
I try to keep out of it. I just try to do my bit and keep my head down.
Race can get used in all ways. Me complaining to Council about services. Then Im told Im not "representative" of the local community.
I could go on.
I would say Diane Abbot letter reflects how some in Black communuty see race.
Racism in London is about racism against Black people. Also part of this is the White Supremacy. Does not matter if you are white working class defending local services the unsaid part is that just being white and you are privileged.
Mix this in with those who appoint themselves as community leaders/ spokespeople
On other hand in London race is about Black people. Which imo as a White Londoner is correct. When Casey said the Met are institionally racist she did not say racist against Black people. Anyone in London will know what she means.
What I would prefer is some actual converstion about what racism is about instead of this awful finger pointing on all sides , infighting in the so called Left , people getting on the high moral political horses and this way of destroying individuals in selective way.
Whilst not my MP on issues like Windrush she has been a stalwart for the community she represents.
She has been subject to a lot of abuse. And I feel there is an unpleasant side to the glee some get about her being pulled down.
On her letter. It did not suprise me. Being involved in local community issues in inner London and race comes up.
I try to keep out of it. I just try to do my bit and keep my head down.
Race can get used in all ways. Me complaining to Council about services. Then Im told Im not "representative" of the local community.
I could go on.
I would say Diane Abbot letter reflects how some in Black communuty see race.
Racism in London is about racism against Black people. Also part of this is the White Supremacy. Does not matter if you are white working class defending local services the unsaid part is that just being white and you are privileged.
Mix this in with those who appoint themselves as community leaders/ spokespeople
On other hand in London race is about Black people. Which imo as a White Londoner is correct. When Casey said the Met are institionally racist she did not say racist against Black people. Anyone in London will know what she means.
What I would prefer is some actual converstion about what racism is about instead of this awful finger pointing on all sides , infighting in the so called Left , people getting on the high moral political horses and this way of destroying individuals in selective way.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As it happens Ive been reading books about the Empire recently.
Almost finished this one. One of its theme is solidarity. How people can learn from each other about Race and Empire.
The author does not engage in finger pointing or blanket blaming of people.
Reading this book at same time as Diane Abbot issue and cannot help feeling that the debate that should be had is not going on.
www.versobooks.com
Almost finished this one. One of its theme is solidarity. How people can learn from each other about Race and Empire.
The author does not engage in finger pointing or blanket blaming of people.
Reading this book at same time as Diane Abbot issue and cannot help feeling that the debate that should be had is not going on.
Insurgent Empire
Much has been written on the how colonial subjects took up British and European ideas and turned them against empire when making claims to freedom and self-determination. The possibility of reverse influence has been largely overlooked. Insurgent Empire shows how Britain's enslaved and colonial...
www.versobooks.com
andysays
Love and solidarity
Racism in Hackney, in the comnunity Diane Abbot is supposed to represent, and in London more broadly, is far more complicated than you and she appear to recognise.
It's not just about Black people (and it's telling to me that all the examples she mentioned were explicitly about Black people). Hackney is a hugely diverse borough with many different communities, many of whom have been and still are subject to racism, and if you fail to acknowledge this you can't properly represent the whole community.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's more complicated than that - sure we've all been to eg altab ali park in Whitechapel for example. It's not racism but racisms at play, plus a range of prejudices. This is of course beyond the ability of pretty much all mps to comprehend
The letter was a stupid thing to say, but I think it is far more likely that she had UK and America in mind (and a lot of online discussions of race are very US-centric these days) and didn't think through the full implications of what she was talking about than that she is secretly anti-semitic.
I really hate this trend that's arose in social media where what people say is put under a microscope and extrapolated to its full logical conclusion to declare that the person who said it is actually a monster, rather than just someone who hadn't thought through every single possible eventuality of the logic they are using.
I really hate this trend that's arose in social media where what people say is put under a microscope and extrapolated to its full logical conclusion to declare that the person who said it is actually a monster, rather than just someone who hadn't thought through every single possible eventuality of the logic they are using.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Tbh if she hadn't mentioned America and South Africa in different times it'd have been something of a stretch to bring in the holocaust in response as it'd have been I think clear she was talking about Britain now. She made a great rod for her own back imo.
ouirdeaux
Caring, Understanding, Non-judgemental Type
bimble above somewhere couldn't decide if the comment was racist or stupid. It is well to remember that racism is a subset of stupidity, and the latter can take many forms.
Academics distinguish between racism, which is fundamental to a particular society, and prejudice, which any member of any group can display towards any other. How much merit there is in this distinction can be debated, but it is spectacularly unwise for a politician to get involved in this debate. What you say isn't as important as what people hear, and she should realise that a lot of people are going to take away from this 'Diane Abbott said that only white people are bad, black people are angels'.
Academics distinguish between racism, which is fundamental to a particular society, and prejudice, which any member of any group can display towards any other. How much merit there is in this distinction can be debated, but it is spectacularly unwise for a politician to get involved in this debate. What you say isn't as important as what people hear, and she should realise that a lot of people are going to take away from this 'Diane Abbott said that only white people are bad, black people are angels'.
andysays
Love and solidarity
To be clear, I don't think Diane Abbott is anti semitic, but I do think her conception of racism is flawed.
She appears to be suggesting that only Black people experience "proper" racism, that any other other discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, etc is merely prejudice similar to that experienced by people with red hair.
This view, as mentioned above by Gramsci, reflects how some in the Black community see race, but IMO it's a view which is outdated, parochial and divisive.
Yeah I agreed that it's flawed. But it's a bit of a leap from "flawed view of racism from someone who has personally experienced a great deal of it" to "anti-semitic monster who basically supports the holocaust" which is how it seems to be portrayed in some quarters.
bimble
floofy
I mean sort of but not really, I wasn't confused, said i don't think it was antisemitic but do think it was idiotic. Stupid take and then triple stupid to have sent it off to the newspaper.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Is that really how you see racism?!
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