Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP.

[littlebabyjesus]

But if one's basis for claiming that labour is racist is entirely subjective and not supported by facts, that would be definitioally irrational

Nino gave you a link. Have you watched it? I recommend you do. It's not long. Racism - in this case antisemitism - has been weaponised by this Labour leadership in order to purge the party of left-wing members, and a hugely disproportionate number those targeted are themselves Jewish. As pointed out in Forde's report, the terms by which antisemitism is measured have been set entirely by one group, and the fact that those terms are highly contested, not least among Jews themselves, is not recognised. Meanwhile, Forde concludes that the Labour Party has a hierarchy of racism in which colour-based racism, which is what Nino was specifically referring to, is downplayed. Ironic to say the least that he should draw that conclusion given the nature of Abbott's letter that gave them the pretext to have her suspended.

I would argue that to weaponise anti-racism in this way is itself racist. And the effects of this weaponisation are being felt disproportionately by those who themselves experience racism.

 

[Serge Forward]

I don't really know what this means, it just sounds like conspiracy theory. Like when people say "the MSM are out to get you"

Seriously?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't really know what this means, it just sounds like conspiracy theory. Like when people say "the MSM are out to get you"

In 2019, the BBC really was out to get Corbyn. So was the Guardian.

 

[A380]

Oh fuck off, you've been answered plenty across dozens of threads. You've been pointed to essays, books, entire websites. There's threads on every conceivable campaign, community and workplace approach, quite a few which you've been on.

So you aren’t doing anything then? Fair enough. Stay pure.

 

[Pickman's model]

In 2019, the BBC really was out to get Corbyn. So was the Guardian.

Not to mention the parliamentary Labour party

 

[Rob Ray]

So you aren’t doing anything then? Fair enough. Stay pure.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's because no one ever answers.

We have had this conversation 1000s of times over and no one ever answers or addresses the things, flawed, corrupt, reformist, right wing 'red tory' labour governments have delivered for working people. I'm not even a Labour Party member at the moment and I really don't like Kier Starmer (Or Shamer as oh so revolutionary posters insist on calling him, which is really sticking it to the Man).

So what is YOUR course of action for 2024/2025?

Who calls shammer shamer?

 

[Karl Masks]

Nino gave you a link. Have you watched it? I recommend you do. It's not long. Racism - in this case antisemitism - has been weaponised by this Labour leadership in order to purge the party of left-wing members, and a hugely disproportionate number those targeted are themselves Jewish. As pointed out in Forde's report, the terms by which antisemitism is measured have been set entirely by one group, and the fact that those terms are highly contested, not least among Jews themselves, is not recognised. Meanwhile, Forde concludes that the Labour Party has a hierarchy of racism in which colour-based racism, which is what Nino was specifically referring to, is downplayed. Ironic to say the least that he should draw that conclusion given the nature of Abbott's letter that gave them the pretext to have her suspended.

I have never denied racism exists in the Labour party, I even said so a few posts above. I don't know what link you are referring to but i've seen the Al Jazeera investiation. I don't deny what happened and is likely still hiappening, and I don't deny the shit that Diane has to tolerate.

How does this affect the national situation? If you can't bring yourself to vote for Labour then what alternative is on offer? There are no good choices and racism isn't going away anytime soon, regardless who wins next year?

 

[Serge Forward]

There are plenty of alternatives, just not parliamentary ones.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have never denied racism exists in the Labour party, I even said so a few posts above. I don't know what link you are referring to but i've seen the Al Jazeera investiation. I don't deny what happened and is likely still hiappening, and I don't deny the shit that Diane has to tolerate.

How does this affect the national situation? If you can't bring yourself to vote for Labour then what alternative is on offer? There are no good choices and racism isn't going away anytime soon, regardless who wins next year?

So in short your advice is for those who oppose racism to vote for a racist party

 

[Serge Forward]

And if the choice was between BNP and the Tories....?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have never denied racism exists in the Labour party, I even said so a few posts above. I don't know what link you are referring to but i've seen the Al Jazeera investiation. I don't deny what happened and is likely still hiappening, and I don't deny the shit that Diane has to tolerate.

How does this affect the national situation? If you can't bring yourself to vote for Labour then what alternative is on offer? There are no good choices and racism isn't going away anytime soon, regardless who wins next year?

Racism isn't going away any time soon, but as a minimum I would have thought we should be able to expect a party that isn't institutionally racist. Starmer's Labour is now institutionally racist. What alternative does it even represent?

We're in Through the Looking Glass territory here. Corbyn was falsely accused of running an institutionally racist party, and those accusations are now being run with by people who have actually created an institutionally racist party.

 

[Pickman's model]

And if the choice was between BNP and the Tories....?

He'd choose the patriotic alternative

 

[pbsmooth]

Again, please do fuck off with that, I'm not talking about some Illuminati bollocks I'm talking about the broad spectrum of what the ruling classes want to achieve (and have done since year dot), with variations in how they think it's easiest to get there. Neoliberalism was one means to that end, social conservativism is another - split and exploit the working class, keep the status quo stable.

The method by which they do this in terms of The Vote is to lobby and capture politicians and their support networks (as we have seen happening in Labour) in order to make sure the general trend is in their favour. Within that process there can be minor variation (Labour vs Tory), but the ratchet effect of "least worst/hard decisions" ensures long-term success because the overall direction is never challenged.

I respect your general opinion but I simply disagree with it. I'm not racist or stupid. I'm happy to vote Labour. And would prefer them to be in govt. Simple as that.

 

[steeplejack]

So again, what is your alternative for 2024 /2025? Not being snippy asking what YOUR alternative is for 2024/2025?

My alternative is fundamental systemic change towards reducing class inequality & delivering rapid solutions to the mounting problems of the climate emergency.

Voting Labour or indeed anyone will do sweet FA to bringing these political goals about. No, I can’t do this on an individual basis (the practice of voting).

Democratic politics requires continual involvement & negotiation and the current system of voting in rich upper middle class people to shaft us whilst also being landlords / board members / corporate owned grifters doesn’t fucking work anymore.

 

[Pickman's model]

I respect your general opinion but I simply disagree with it. I'm not racist or stupid. I'm happy to vote Labour. And would prefer them to be in govt. Simple as that.

Yes, there's a better class of racist in the modern Labour party

 

[danny la rouge]

That's because no one ever answers.

You just don’t like the answer. I’m sure it’s because you think the answer we give lies outside the bounds of something or other, but that’s your issue not ours.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I respect your general opinion but I simply disagree with it. I'm not racist or stupid. I'm happy to vote Labour. And would prefer them to be in govt. Simple as that.

I do get the argument, and have made it myself in the past, but I'm really not sure I'm that bothered now if the Sunak shit-show continues or we get Blair Mark 2.

I would - and did - vote Labour with Corbyn in charge. Flawed as he was, he represented a hope for genuine change, and I returned to voting for the first time since Blair. Starmer represents a guarantee of no genuine change. And I return to being entirely disenfranchised, however I vote.

ETA:
fwiw I think the best result at the next election would be a hung parliament.

 

[Karl Masks]

Racism isn't going away any time soon, but as a minimum I would have thought we should be able to expect a party that isn't institutionally racist. Starmer's Labour is now institutionally racist. What alternative does it even represent?

We're in Through the Looking Glass territory here. Corbyn was falsely accused of running an institutionally racist party, and those accusations are now being run with by people who have actually created an institutionally racist party.

We should. But where is the non racist alternative that has any chance of winning an election? The Greens? Even they are going to struggle. A racist party is going to win whatever we might like.

 

[PTK]

I do get the argument, and have made it myself in the past, but I'm really not sure I'm that bothered now if the Sunak shit-show continues or we get Blair Mark 2.

I would - and did - vote Labour with Corbyn in charge. Flawed as he was, he represented a hope for genuine change, and I returned to voting for the first time since Blair. Starmer represents a guarantee of no genuine change. And I return to being entirely disenfranchised, however I vote.

ETA:
fwiw I think the best result at the next election would be a hung parliament.

Ah yes, a hung Parliament was a wonderful result in 2010, wasn't it?

 

[Karl Masks]

ETA:
fwiw I think the best result at the next election would be a hung parliament.

That's likely to lead to the Labour going into coalistion with the libdems, possibly the Greens. It's no guarantee it won't mean another tory led or involved coalition. I wouldn't even put it past Stamer to ally with the tories to form some government of national unity or whatever

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah yes, a hung Parliament was a wonderful result in 2010, wasn't it?

It would mean things being shaken up with the end result uncertain. It clearly might not work. But Labour winning won't work either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's likely to lead to the Labour going into coalistion with the libdems, possibly the Greens. It's no guarantee it won't mean another tory led or involved coalition. I wouldn't even put it past Stamer to ally with the tories to form some government of national unity or whatever

How different would that look from Labour governing on its own? Serious question.

Could lead to a split in the LP, mind you, which is something that needs to happen.

 

[A380]

My alternative is fundamental systemic change towards reducing class inequality & delivering rapid solutions to the mounting problems of the climate emergency.

Voting Labour or indeed anyone will do sweet FA to bringing these political goals about. No, I can’t do this on an individual basis (the practice of voting).

Democratic politics requires continual involvement & negotiation and the current system of voting in rich upper middle class people to shaft us whilst also being landlords / board members / corporate owned grifters doesn’t fucking work anymore.

What are you doing to deliver your answer?

 

[A380]

You just don’t like the answer. I’m sure it’s because you think the answer we give lies outside the bounds of something or other, but that’s your issue not ours.

I love many of the answers. But they aren’t happening in 2024/5.

 

[PTK]

It would mean things being shaken up with the end result uncertain. It clearly might not work. But Labour winning won't work either.

It "might" not work?

How could it work? How could a hung Parliament lead to a reformist government?

 

[Rob Ray]

Ah yes, a hung Parliament was a wonderful result in 2010, wasn't it?

From the left voting perspective it might well be better than a stonking Labour victory. If Starmerism wins big you can kiss goodbye to even the slightest hope of a left revival in Parliamentary politics. He'd need to scrape it. At best.

 

[two sheds]

Yes but just scraping it will be blamed on the left and they'll decide they weren't right wing enough so kiss goodbye to even the slightest hope of a left revival in Parliamentary politics, too.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

at the risk of trespassing on another urbanite's patch, there is already a thread about the wider merits (or otherwise) of voting labour any time soon

Hold your nose and vote Labour?

I have tended to vote Labour despite their policies and political history. I can’t see myself doing so in the next GE nor indeed in the upcoming council elections. Not sure who will get my vote if any. What about you?

www.urban75.net

as i have said on there, the government after the next election will either be a tory-ish 'labour' government which probably won't make things any better, or an increasingly far-right 'conservative' one which will probably make things worse.

a labour win will encourage starmer to think he's done the correct thing in getting more right wing. a labour loss will encourage starmer to think he hasn't got right wing enough yet.

there isn't a good answer.

 

[tommers]

You should vote for Labour instead of the Tories cos they are strong on stopping the boats.. oh no hang on.. cos they are the party of fiscal responsibili.. oh... because they are committed to combating climate ch... um... have they said anything about nationalising things? Seem to remember that was on a thing at one point? Probably still doing that I guess.

I'm going to vote for them cos I love toolmakers. And manure.