Cultural acquiescence towards nature

[Aquamarine]

I 've read a brief comment by an author I respect referring to Far Eastern cultural acquiescence towards nature (cosmology, reverence of nature etc) which supposedly meant that until recently economic activity there didn't strive against nature in the same way it has in the West. Is this true? Was it ever true?

 

[JimW]

There's a famous poem by the eleventh century Chinese statesman Wang Anshi called Bald Mountain which bemoans the consequences of reckless exploitation of Nature (though it's also satirical comment on greedy officials) so it was a phenomenon needing warning against a thousand years ago at least.

 

[Idris2002]

I 've read a brief comment by an author I respect referring to Far Eastern cultural acquiescence towards nature (cosmology, reverence of nature etc) which supposedly meant that until recently economic activity there didn't strive against nature in the same way it has in the West. Is this true? Was it ever true?

This sounds more like the old stereotype of "oriental fatalism". Given that "oriental despotism" was meant to be marked by vast irrigation projects that reshaped landscapes and their water resources so as to feed huge populations and keep the despots in power, I don't think it was ever true.

 

[NoXion]

All pre-modern cultures had at least some form of medicine, including east Asian cultures. I would argue that medicine of any kind is the very opposite of any acquiescence to nature. The practitioner is trying to prevent death or ill health in the patient, while nature is blindly pushing them towards the grave.

So... no?

 

[planetgeli]

All pre-modern cultures had at least some form of medicine, including east Asian cultures. I would argue that medicine of any kind is the very opposite of any acquiescence to nature. The practitioner is trying to prevent death or ill health in the patient, while nature is blindly pushing them towards the grave.

So... no?

Does nature blindly push us towards the grave? All those pre-modern cultures medicines (and most of present modern cultures too) were plant based. Nature has given us (and other animals on the planet) medicines to help with pain and ill health. Medicine is working with nature. Admittedly that's not acquiescence but it's certainly not the opposite.

 

[NoXion]

Does nature blindly push us towards the grave?

People naturally die unless steps are taken otherwise, yes.

All those pre-modern cultures medicines (and most of present modern cultures too) were plant based. Nature has given us (and other animals on the planet) medicines to help with pain and ill health. Medicine is working with nature. Admittedly that's not acquiescence but it's certainly not the opposite.

I disagree. Even something as simple as relieving pain by chewing coca leaves involves agriculture (humans controlling nature), which is a lot of hard work. It's certainly not handed to us. Nature's bounty is slim pickings, which is why hunter-gatherer societies tend not to gather together long term in the kind of large, dense populations that lend themselves well to the complex division of labour.

 

[tim]

People have always adapted the environment in which they live to supply their needs. Having done so, feeling a certain nostalgia for perceived loss resulting from that adaptation, they've always created gardens. Like these idealised dollops of "nature" I'm currently sitting opposite: Eden, Babylon, Vauxhall.

 

[8ball]

Those a really nice dollops of nature.

 

[danny la rouge]

I 've read a brief comment by an author I respect referring to Far Eastern cultural acquiescence towards nature (cosmology, reverence of nature etc) which supposedly meant that until recently economic activity there didn't strive against nature in the same way it has in the West. Is this true? Was it ever true?

All humans, and many pre- H. sapiens hominids, have reshaped nature long before agriculture. (Using fire, coppicing, selectively clearing forests as a hunting strategy, etc). Indeed, not just our genus: beavers extensively reshape their landscape.

 

[campanula]

Like these idealised dollops of "nature" I'm currently sitting opposite: Eden, Babylon, Vauxhall.

Nothing natural about gardens (or woods either) Total artifice. An endless cycle of death, decay, rebirth... regardless of human input, despite our laughable attempts at control.

 

[tim]

Nothing natural about gardens (or woods either) Total artifice. An endless cycle of death, decay, rebirth... regardless of human input, despite our laughable attempts at control.

Nothing natural about nature, we live in an environment that we have formed and control and have done for millennia, which is fine by me. That's not to say that I don't like animals, birds and plants. I'd love to see a cloned mammoth or dodo

 

[tim]

Cloned post

 

[Cid]

There's a famous poem by the eleventh century Chinese statesman Wang Anshi called Bald Mountain which bemoans the consequences of reckless exploitation of Nature (though it's also satirical comment on greedy officials) so it was a phenomenon needing warning against a thousand years ago at least.

I think the myth/history of 大禹 also paints a somewhat different picture...

For non-jims he (the great Yu) is a kind of semi-mythical early king of China, founder of the Xia dynasty. He is famous for controlling flooding (iirc yellow river) via a massive programme of irrigation. There's a lot of stuff about this I'm forgetting due to a few G&Ts and a lack of knowledge, but he gets stuck in properly, gets callouses and the like. Fundamentally though he is the founder of the first entity that is linked with a specific Chinese identity. It's possible he's some kind of creation of the <checks> Western Zhou, but even then we're talking <checks> 1045-771BC.

Point being that this figure, someone who is often discussed in Chinese cultural classes, that is a deep part of how China has seen itself for a very long time, is famous explicitly for striving against nature.

e2a: and yeah, you can see how that also links to idris' point.

 

[Celyn]

I 've read a brief comment by an author I respect referring to Far Eastern cultural acquiescence towards nature (cosmology, reverence of nature etc) which supposedly meant that until recently economic activity there didn't strive against nature in the same way it has in the West. Is this true? Was it ever true?

It sounds a little bit "Noble Savage".

 

[Idris2002]

It sounds a little bit "Noble Savage".

Just a tad.

 

[8ball]

Sometimes the Australian aboriginals are trotted out as an example of a group of people living in harmony with nature.

There is something to this, but nevertheless the fossil record shows a mass extinction in that area starting around 40,000 years ago if memory serves.

 

[platinumsage]

The idea that certain Asian countries had a form of economic activity that didn’t “strive against nature”, is about as far-fetched as the notion that other places had a form of economic activity that did.

Economic activity doesn't pay any attention to "nature" and is certainly not going to waste effort deliberately striving against it like a petulant child.

Perhaps proponents of the idea might like to point out some striving activities and their non-striving equivalents. Did Edo-period Japanese people pay good money to get blown into the sea by typhoons perhaps, while settlers in Virginia invested their resources in sturdy houses?

 

[8ball]

Economic activity doesn't pay any attention to "nature" and is certainly not going to waste effort deliberately striving against it like a petulant child.

Sometimes it had no, otherwise crop rotation wouldn't exist. But I agree that nature has always been a dumping ground for unmentioned externalities.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Does nature blindly push us towards the grave? All those pre-modern cultures medicines (and most of present modern cultures too) were plant based. Nature has given us (and other animals on the planet) medicines to help with pain and ill health. Medicine is working with nature. Admittedly that's not acquiescence but it's certainly not the opposite.

More medicines are coming from plant sources, the yew tree has provided a number of effective cancer treatments.

 

[8ball]

More medicines are coming from plant sources, the yew tree has provided a number of effective cancer treatments.

Yes, plants are a goldmine of all manner of toxins and poisons.

Which are what you want when you need to selectively kill cells.

 

[Sasaferrato]

The idea that certain Asian countries had a form of economic activity that didn’t “strive against nature”, is about as far-fetched as the notion that other places had a form of economic activity that did.

Economic activity doesn't pay any attention to "nature" and is certainly not going to waste effort deliberately striving against it like a petulant child.

Perhaps proponents of the idea might like to point out some striving activities and their non-striving equivalents. Did Edo-period Japanese people pay good money to get blown into the sea by typhoons perhaps, while settlers in Virginia invested their resources in sturdy houses?

Was Japanese housing type not dictated by the frequency of earthquakes though? Wood and paper houses were more easily rebuilt after earthquake and its attendant fires.

 

[JimW]

There's possibly a bit of mileage in some difference between a view of the world so-of-itself as in the mainstream Chinese understanding (can't speak for elsewhere East) and one created for Man's use by God in the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic interpretation. Should imagine it would be a bit tangential to material questions but then recall reading about Tibetan herders maintaining dietary taboos that cut off good food sources where they were already facing pretty slim pickings so perhaps we should give credence to cultural mores.

 

[8ball]

Was Japanese housing type not dictated by the frequency of earthquakes though? Wood and paper houses were more easily rebuilt after earthquake and its attendant fires.

I think you could argue that's a kind of "striving against nature" - setting up effective shelters that overcome existing conditions and that.

 

[Idris2002]

It sounds a little bit "Noble Savage".

JimW - isn't there some tradition in Chinese literature of discourse on the "wild people" beyond the frontiers, which mirrors (to at least some extent) the Euro's idea of the "noble savage", or at least of the "savage"?

 

[JimW]

JimW - isn't there some tradition in Chinese literature of discourse on the "wild people" beyond the frontiers, which mirrors (to at least some extent) the Euro's idea of the "noble savage", or at least of the "savage"?

Certainly had a notion similar to barbarian.

 

[Idris2002]

Certainly had a notion similar to barbarian.

Even down to the "barbaroi", they talk funny thing?

 

[JimW]

Even down to the "barbaroi", they talk funny thing?

Within and without the culture mostly.
ETA I should look up some papers on this as it's an interesting subject and there's been some good stuff written that I don't really remember!

 

[JimW]

Having looked up a couple of terms I'm familiar with such as 五胡 and 胡越 which connoted barbarians at various points one thing pointed out which I should have realised is you don't want to take later back projection of a spurious unity as the reality of attitudes over time - the Han Dynasty treatment of other peoples being very different from the Tang, not to mention the later actual "barbarian" dynasties.

 

[yield]

More medicines are coming from plant sources, the yew tree has provided a number of effective cancer treatments.

Aspirin comes from the willow.

The idea that certain Asian countries had a form of economic activity that didn’t “strive against nature”, is about as far-fetched as the notion that other places had a form of economic activity that did.

Japan went through an ecological crisis in the 17th century due to deforestation. They imposed drastic and draconian policies to arrest that.

 

[bimble]

People have always adapted the environment in which they live to supply their needs. Having done so, feeling a certain nostalgia for perceived loss resulting from that adaptation, they've always created gardens. Like these idealised dollops of "nature" I'm currently sitting opposite: Eden, Babylon, Vauxhall.

View attachment 222995

I thought the whole romantic notion of gardens (and the picturesque view) was a fairly recent thing, a reaction to industrialisation.