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[...] Not that this lead to a totally unknown world, they just had to go back further in time to a much older orthodox approach to epidemics that pre-dated the modern era of vaccines etc. [...]
This is why I immediately suggested border controls, quarantine and contact tracing: Covid-19 has stripped away the protections of modern medicine -- although if anecdotal reports are backed by clinical studies, this may soon end -- so must be crushed with traditional public health measures.

Not that there's a neat split: the eradication of Smallpox was surprisingly old fashioned, with isolation and contact tracing the key components, aided by ring vaccination; and technology makes contact tracing more efficient than it's ever been.

That's the tragedy of this: we've never been in a better position to suppress an outbreak, but so many countries have squandered the opportunity.
 
Yes, fair point, on the most generous assessment, Britain's response is still disastrous. One look at the foreign press outside America shows just how bad. The Australian press holds us up as a cautionary tale, and their CMO called the situation here "carnage". The government is furiously gaslighting for good reason.
Their ongoing profoundly anti-democratic secrecy over the whole process just leads me to assume the worst, tbh. They fucked up and the minutes to the SAGE meetings would show exactly the process they followed as they fucked up, and they're desperate that we should not know that. Why else try to suppress it?
 
I saw a bit of an interview with Trump and the newscaster was saying that Trump would be happy to fight the upcoming election on his handling of the coronavirus issue. I am not sure that would be a great strategy for him myself.
 
I saw a bit of an interview with Trump and the newscaster was saying that Trump would be happy to fight the upcoming election on his handling of the coronavirus issue. I am not sure that would be a great strategy for him myself.

It's a great strategy. He's already set out his stall. He's an idiot. But he's not stupid - he's actually going to use this to his advantage by saying he was right all along to not trust the Chinese. The electorate will lap it up in the states he needs. This, coupled with the fact the democrats have no viable candidate means FOUR MORE YEARS.
 
BTW, if it was any other US president suggesting it was possible that this was a leak from the facility in Wuhan would you maybe give it some more credence? It does seem like a hell of a coincidence that that virology centre is located there. It would have been totally accidental of course but I don't think we can write it off just because it's the moron currently in the White House putting it forward.
 
BTW, if it was any other US president suggesting it was possible that this was a leak from the facility in Wuhan would you maybe give it some more credence? It does seem like a hell of a coincidence that that virology centre is located there. It would have been totally accidental of course but I don't think we can write it off just because it's the moron currently in the White House putting it forward.
It's a city the size of London. It has a virology department. How many other virology departments are there in London-sized cities around the world? It may have come from there, who knows, but it's not such an enormous coincidence that there is a virology dept there studying coronaviruses. There are virology departments all over the place, such as at London's Imperial College. They're likely to study the viruses that are most relevant to their particular part of the world, so they're likely to study the kinds of viruses that are most likely to hop onto humans in their part of the world.

Turn it around. It's a city of around 10 million people. Would you expect there to be a virology centre there? I would say yes, why not, they're not uncommon. Given the recent history of East Asia with SARS, etc, would you expect that virology centre to be studying coronaviruses? Again yes. In fact, it would surprise me more if it didn't.
 
It's a city the size of London. It has a virology department. How many other virology departments are there in London-sized cities around the world? It may have come from there, who knows, but it's not such an enormous coincidence that there is a virology dept there studying coronaviruses. There are virology departments all over the place, such as at London's Imperial College. They're likely to study the viruses that are most relevant to their particular part of the world, so they're likely to study the kinds of viruses that are most likely to hop onto humans in their part of the world.

Fair enough. It's interesting though that the US intelligence community, who hate Trump by all accounts, ruled out a deliberate and malicious development of the virus in the facility, but didn't rule out an accidental leak of it. Which kind of speaks volumes.
 
Fair enough. It's interesting though that the US intelligence community, who hate Trump by all accounts, ruled out a deliberate and malicious development of the virus in the facility, but didn't rule out an accidental leak of it. Which kind of speaks volumes.
It just speaks to their level of knowledge. The reason they've ruled out artificial development is because they've studied the genome and found no evidence of tampering in the pattern of mutations. So it's a virus that appears to have evolved naturally. Where it came from exactly? They know no more about that than you or I know.
 
Fair enough. It's interesting though that the US intelligence community, who hate Trump by all accounts, ruled out a deliberate and malicious development of the virus in the facility, but didn't rule out an accidental leak of it. Which kind of speaks volumes.

Intelligence would likely know if the Chinese were working on, or likely to, develop and release a virus deliberately, but it's much harder to rule out an accidental release as by its very nature there's loads of variables as to how accidents can happen.

So it's a fair position to have without it sounding like the accidental release is likely, it just can't be ruled out with such certainty.
 
Intelligence would likely know if the Chinese were working on, or likely to, develop and release a virus deliberately, but it's much harder to rule out an accidental release as by its very nature there's loads of variables as to how accidents can happen.

So it's a fair position to have without it sounding like the accidental release is likely, it just can't be ruled out with such certainty.
tbh it could have been an accident, which they have covered up. Entirely plausible. But I'm struggling to get my head around the idea that anyone would seriously think China would deliberately release a new and deadly virus in the middle of one of its own cities? It's absurd.
 
tbh it could have been an accident, which they have covered up. Entirely plausible. But I'm struggling to get my head around the idea that anyone would seriously think China would deliberately release a new and deadly virus in the middle of one of its own cities? It's absurd.
I don't know they can be pretty devious those Chinese.china-may-be-using-sea-to-hide-its-submarines.jpg
 
This is news I think? Assuming it’s not a case of post sampling contamination:

“Research in France, where a Paris-area hospital has retested old samples from pneumonia patients, has found a Covid-19 case from 27 December, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases, and suggesting the virus was circulating in Europe earlier than previously thought.

Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals in the northern suburbs of Paris, said the man, who had not made any trips, was sick for 15 days and had infected his two children, but not his wife. “He was amazed. He didn’t understand how he had been infected,” he said.”

From French hospital discovers Covid-19 case from December

edit: better link.
 
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tbh it could have been an accident, which they have covered up. Entirely plausible. But I'm struggling to get my head around the idea that anyone would seriously think China would deliberately release a new and deadly virus in the middle of one of its own cities? It's absurd.

I wasn't suggesting that. Trump suggested the deliberate release of it and then added as a caveat that it might have been accidental and the Chinese then covered up their massive fuckup. Which is a scenario I find more plausible than the whole BatFlu thing to be honest. I'm not a conspiracy theorist btw. But the the fact that it's Trump saying this, is, I think clouding some peoples' judgements. If Obama was hinting at this would you give it more credence?
 
I wasn't suggesting that. Trump suggested the deliberate release of it and then added as a caveat that it might have been accidental and the Chinese then covered up their massive fuckup. Which is a scenario I find more plausible than the whole BatFlu thing to be honest. I'm not a conspiracy theorist btw. But the the fact that it's Trump saying this, is, I think clouding some peoples' judgements. If Obama was hinting at this would you give it more credence?
Fair dos. I wasn't suggesting you thought that. But this is simply naked deflection and electioneering from Trump. He has zero evidence that this leaked from a lab accidentally. Nobody has any evidence of that.

And I'm sorry but your not finding the 'BatFlu thing' scenario plausible is simply you not knowing about the ways in which viruses can jump species. It's happened many times before and will no doubt happen again.

Here's an extract from a recent New Scientist article about the likelihood that the 1880 Russian flu was actually a coronavirus, which is still around today and is one of the various viruses that causes the common cold. (It's not just about increased immunity - viruses evolve over time to become less deadly, generally - low evolutionary fitness to kill your host.)

The idea that common cold coronaviruses were far more deadly when they first appeared in humans is supported by animal studies. In 2016, for example, scientists caught a coronavirus in the act of jumping species into pigs. “The genetic sequence was closely related to coronaviruses in bats, so it looked like the virus had spilled over directly from bats,” says Linda Saif at Ohio State University. That virus killed 25,000 piglets in China in just a few months. Such events are common, says Saif, who has been investigating new coronavirus outbreaks in animals for decades. In the 1990s, for instance, a respiratory coronavirus devastated cattle herds with “shipping fever”. And in 1977, a diarrhoeal disease caused by a coronavirus emerged in pigs in Europe, later spreading to China and then the US, where it killed an estimated 8 million pigs.


“It is quite possible that when these [common cold] coronaviruses first jumped over to humans, they would have caused episodes of severe disease,” says Saif. What is surprising, however, is how infrequently such leaps seem to have occurred. “When SARS happened,” says Esper, “people like myself started looking for other coronaviruses that might cause respiratory infections.” Only one new one turned up. In 2005, the fourth common cold coronavirus was discovered in a 71-year-old pneumonia patient in a Hong Kong hospital. HCoV-HKU1 causes respiratory illnesses and has been recorded worldwide. Its closest relative appears to be a rodent coronavirus. We don’t know when it began infecting humans. Esper points out, though, that people are less likely to be hospitalised with HKU1 and NL63 than with 229E and OC43, possibly indicating that the former pair have more ancient roots in human populations.


Read more: What four coronaviruses from history can tell us about covid-19


tbh the surprise ought not to be that this has happened. The surprise ought to be that we are surprised that it has happened. Suspecting foul play with no evidence for it kind of misses the point here.
 
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Ive been wondering about those coronaviruses related to colds too and whether they confer any degree of protection.
 
Ive been wondering about those coronaviruses related to colds too and whether they confer any degree of protection.
Yeah, I read a thing on that too. It's possible - like cowpox antibodies protecting milkmaids from smallpox. However, the article I read said that it is also possible that the opposite is true, and that having antibodies for related coronaviruses may provoke an overreaction from our bodies. This could explain why older people are more vulnerable. Currently we just don't know.
 
The idea that the virus went from bats to humans via an intermediate species sold at a wildlife market for food is evidently plausible, since it is exactly how the first SARS spread from bats to humans, and the conditions remained for the same thing to happen again.
Yep. And the fact that there is a virology centre 5 km away (not exactly around the corner in big city terms) is not really a bombshell revelation. At best it's a distraction from the questions that we need to ask regarding how to stop this from happening again. At worst, of course, it's just plain racism from Trump and others seeking to stir things up and deflect from their own shortcomings.
 
Here's an extract from a recent New Scientist article about the likelihood that the 1880 Russian flu was actually a coronavirus, which is still around today and is one of the various viruses that causes the common cold. (It's not just about increased immunity - viruses evolve over time to become less deadly, generally - low evolutionary fitness to kill your host.)

I cannot read the full article, but it sounds like it was probably based on something I have read before due to my interest in what previous coronaviruses might have been like when they first emerged in humans. Its the 1889-90 pandemic, and the speculation came from a 2004-2005 paper that found a link between the OC43 human coronavirus and a bovine coronavirus. And then they did some time analysis which gave them some dates around 1890, although the 95% confidence interval covers some much broader ranges. And there is a fair amount of uncertainty about some other details, but since they have that date range and also found evidence of cattle herds being affected by something nasty int he 2nd half of the 19th century, and massive culling operations between 1870 and 1890 to eradicate that disease, they decided to speculate about the 1889-90 pandemic in humans. I'm glad they did, I found it very interesting, albeit not something close to proven.

This is the paper:


I cannot begin to quote all the key bits, so I will just pick one bit from the speculation near the end:

Another argument is the fact that central nervous system symptoms were more pronounced during the 1889–1890 epi- demic than in other influenza outbreaks. It has been shown that HCoV-OC43 has neurotropism and can be neuroinvasive.

Of course I enjoy speculation as long as it is acknowledged as such, and so I could not help but augment this stuff with some press details from the 1889-90 pandemic. Such as these, which I should note refer to various different countries and contradict eachother sometimes:

According to other estimations, the total incidence amounted to 100,000 cases; military hospitals were overcrowded, multiple factories and workshops suspended their work because of the workers’ illness, and whole districts of the city were abandoned by the population [19]. It was reported that the disease could occur suddenly, without any preliminary signs, and that it touched the young and the old, the poor and the rich. It began with a terrible headache, accompanied by feverishness up to 42°C, unbearable bone aches and aches of the whole body “up to the hair roots”, facial rashes, and swollen hands. It was observed that after 5–6 days, the illness subsided without a trace, only leaving the patients weakened for some time.

It was described that some patients ended their lives suddenly on the streets, which applied also to a large number of people known in the world of science. It was said that individuals of strenuous mental activity were particularly susceptible to the disease. However, some people had difficulty believing it; as they emphasized, the working people suffered to the same extent as the wealthy classes, because ‘the plague [did] not save any categories’.

The last piece of information appeared on 29 January and it concerned medical issues related to doctor Potain (Pierre Potain, 1825–1901). Potain, one of the Parisian medical greats, was believed to have stated that the prevailing influenza was not a regular flu, insomuch as it was accompanied by the enlargement of spleen, which was not a typical symptom of flu.

The press informed that influenza is so widespread that the school holiday was prolonged for another week . In Stuttgart, however, a medical council (Medicinische Collegium) summoned by the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Wurttemberg to investigate this issue disputed the use of health-police means. In other words, they disagreed that schools should be closed because of the disease since, as it was claimed, ‘this epidemic, both in the past and now, more affects adults than school children’

First information concerning the epidemic in London appeared in the press around the middle of December 1889. As was then reported, it was relatively strong there ‘it showed such a special preference to lawyers and the court magistracy that some chambers of the palace of justice had to suspend their work for several days’ During the epidemic particular attention was paid to the differences in the morbidity between the sexes, since it was noted that women were less vulnerable to it.

It was also claimed that although at first it was treated lightly, it turned out to be in fact more serious than it was presented.

 
By the way there are some fun little videos about the Salisbury Common Cold Unit where some human coronaviruses were first discovered in the 1960's here (although these videos dont say anything about coronaviruses). People used to volunteer to go there for a nice holiday while having cold viruses (or a placebo) dripped into their nose!

cold3.jpg








 
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It's a city the size of London. It has a virology department. How many other virology departments are there in London-sized cities around the world? It may have come from there, who knows, but it's not such an enormous coincidence that there is a virology dept there studying coronaviruses. There are virology departments all over the place, such as at London's Imperial College. They're likely to study the viruses that are most relevant to their particular part of the world, so they're likely to study the kinds of viruses that are most likely to hop onto humans in their part of the world.

Turn it around. It's a city of around 10 million people. Would you expect there to be a virology centre there? I would say yes, why not, they're not uncommon. Given the recent history of East Asia with SARS, etc, would you expect that virology centre to be studying coronaviruses? Again yes. In fact, it would surprise me more if it didn't.

Bsl-4 labs are not at all common. There are 7 in the EU.
 
Also some are specialised - e.g the uk has a few, but not all deal with human pathogens.
 
Also some are specialised - e.g the uk has a few, but not all deal with human pathogens.
Ok, however, I think my point still stands that labs are more likely to be studying the viruses that are most likely to be a danger in their part of the world. I would be very surprised if that were not the case - it's what they'd be most likely to get funding for.
 
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