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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

As with most FB groups, you have to wade through the endless repetitive questions & pointless posts but there is useful info buried in there too.


I would have been in real difficulty without the mutual aid FB group, managed to help others as well.
 
Does anyone else see a risk here with the app of idiots reporting fake symptoms on it just for a laugh? A virtual version of coughing in supermarkets just to be a fuckwit?

absolutely certain of it, but hopefully the mass of data will ameliorate it.
 
tbh it's the latest in a long line of things that have crept in. My phone knows where I am anyway. My bank knows every time I take the tube. Anyone seeking to trace my activities has a wealth of data to use. This takes things up a level, though, in terms of resolution if nothing else.

Only if location is switched on?
 
I don’t like the idea of it at all, but when I try to examine that reaction for logical reasons the only one I can come up with is they’d lose the data and it would become publically available, which could be bad if I’d been up to something clandestine I didn’t want somebody to know about.

If think about whetherI’m worried that the govt will get all stasi-like, then I rapidly decide that if that’s the route they’re going down the existence or otherwise of this data/app isn’t going to make it more likely (and I don’t think they are going to go stasi-like).

But maybe I’m suffering from a failure of imagination?

DWP already act like them is some ways.
 

I know little about how smart phones work but if that is accurate it's certainly a worrying article. I was wondering more whether enough people would download it to be it viable. The idea that you need to have the app open and in the forefront and your phone hasn't gone to sleep? That would be unrealistic to say the least.
 
The latest ONS data release continues to show what was expected.

Screenshot 2020-05-05 at 12.43.24.png

That takes things to 29,710 Covid-19 deaths by week ending 24/4/2020 (when counting deaths by date of death rather than registration). However, if we look at excess deaths between weeks 13 and 17, there were 38,471 more deaths than the 5 year average for those weeks. It isnt possible at this stage for me to make any attempt to discern which of these were missed Covid-19 deaths, as opposed to indirect deaths, but based on history I would expect quite a lot of them to have been Covid-19 related without it getting mentioned on the death certificate. These figures dont include Scotland or Northern Ireland.

 
If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.
If you've done nothing wrong
You've got nothing to fear
If you've something to hide
You shouldn't even be here

Long live us
The persuaded we
Integral
Collectively
To the whole project
It's brand new
Conceived solely
To protect you

One world
One reason
Unchanging
One season

If you've done nothing wrong
You've got nothing to fear
If you've something to hide
You shouldn't even be here
You've had your chance
Now we've got the mandate
If you've changed your mind
I'm afraid it's too late

We're concerned
You're a threat
You're not integral
To the project

Everyone has
Their own number
In the system that
We operate under
We're moving to
A situation
Where your lives exist as
Information

One world
One life
One chance
One reason
All under
One sky
Unchanging
One season

If you've done nothing wrong
You've got nothing to fear
If you've something to hide
You shouldn't even be here
You've had your chance
Now we've got the mandate
If you've changed your mind
I'm afraid it's too late

We're concerned
You're a threat
You're not integral
To the project
 
There's now a thread about the NHS app -

 
It only asks for the first part of your postcode. In my case for example SW2. Otherwise it's completely anonymous.


That’s rather naive! There’s no such thing as anonymity when using a device that tracks your exact location via gps. Additi ally, even ‘pseudo-anonymised’ data can be re-engineered if you over lay data sets by postcode.
 
A load of waffle about testing system failures from Harries and Vallance, but at least the obvious reality is present in the BBC analysis, albeit as 'one school of thought':


One school of thought is that because the policy at the time was to manage the spread of the virus in the community, widespread testing was not needed to contain outbreaks and suppress the epidemic.
 
I have started wading through the SAGE papers and there is perhaps more in there on some specific issues of interest than I was expecting.

Take for example the crucial period leading up till mid-March when the whole herd immunity thing exploded and u-turns were made. For various reasons it was not previously possible to be completely sure what policies would actually have been implemented under their original plan, or what exactly drove various public statements made by the politicians and medical/scientific authorities before and immediately after the u-turn.

Well, I have some answers. and will probably find some more when I look at further documents later. But for now:

Meeting 12, 3rd March 2020:

Potential impact of behavioural and social interventions on an epidemic of COVID-19 in the UK (4 Martch 2020)

We can see that they did have a look at most of the possible measures in detail, and knew that a combination would be required. A graph that has shapes I broadly recognise from later public Imperial College papers that we got to see from March 16th is present.

But most of the words which are of interest are from a different document from March 4th that was presented in a March 5th meeting. Why am I not surprised that its from the behavioural sub group?

SPI-B insights on combined behavioural and social interventions (4 March 2020)

I cant be quoting the whole thing so some select highlights:

  1. SPI-B have a consensus view that school closures will be highly disruptive and likely to present an unequal burden to different sections of society. Our understanding of reports from Japan is that there is growing discontent around the policy. Isolation of entire households also poses a substantial, and unequal, burden on those affected.
  2. Given this, the combination of interventions most likely to be socially acceptable involves isolation of symptomatic cases and isolation of at-risk members of the public. These are also the most closely targeted, and therefore obviously legitimate, strategies.
  3. Following this, social distancing and prevention of public gathering measures are the next ‘easiest’ to add to the mix.

  1. School closure in conjunction with isolation of those aged 65+ will reduce the ability of grandparents to engage in childcare. This may be beneficial in terms of morbidity of those aged 65+, but will reduce the ability for parents to work. This may be particularly problematic for lower income families and single parents. Consideration should also be given to the impact on workers for critical national infrastructure.

Now then, get those facepalms ready, here comes the source of the herd immunity public comms disaster:

  1. SPI-B have divergent opinions on the impact of not applying widescale social isolation at the same time as recommending isolation to at-risk groups. One view is that explaining that members of the community are building some immunity will make this acceptable. Another view is that recommending isolation to only one section of society risks causing discontent.

Oops!

They also saw what was coming in terms of the backlash against us not doing the same thing as other countries:

Expectations of how the Government will react will be set by media reports of public health strategies in other countries. This increases the risk of public concern if interventions that are perceived to be effective are not applied. A clear explanation as to why expected interventions are not being implemented may be necessary. Data from the Department of Health and Social Care weekly polling suggest that this may be particularly true for banning mass gatherings.

Regardless of the decisions that are made, members of the public will have questions about all strategies listed in the table. Where policies are not applied, Government should be prepared to provide clear, honest advice that takes account of concerns in that area and suggests behaviours that reduce risk. For example, how will the risk to children within schools be managed.

School closures does seem to be the measure they were least keen on, they had some additional points about it at the end:

The importance of schools during a crisis should not be overlooked. This includes
o Acting as a source of emotional support for children
o Providing education (e.g. on hand hygiene) which is conveyed back to families o Provision of social service (e.g. free school meals, monitoring wellbeing)
o Acting as a point of leadership and communication within communities.

Further clues as to what measures they were hoping to combine and which they werent, may be partially deduced by looking at some of the tables in this document. There was an earlier version of the document that only looked at each measure on its own in the tables, but by this version of 9th March, they also had entries where several measures were combined.

Specifically, they looked at just 'home isation of symptomatic cases' and 'social distancing for those over 65' combined. And the same but with whole household isolation (when someone else in that household has symptoms) also added to those two. Missing from these combinations was closure of schools, stopping large events, and social distancing for those not over 65. There is quite a large degree of consistency between the combinations they mentioned, what was left out, and what was being said publicly in press conferences around the same time (eg 9th & 12th March), where they spent considerable time and energy saying why they didnt think school closures or the cancellation of mass gatherings were the way to go at that point.

Potential impact of behavioural and social interventions on an epidemic of COVID-19 in the UK (9 March 2020)

Next time I post about this, we will be into the period where some of this already blew up in their face and a hasty rethink was underway.
 
I’m amazed there’s no Dedicated Matt Hancock is a twat thread on here, so this seems the most apt place to post this.



A proper CUNT moment I have seen over the past week, was Hancock walking past waiting media, on the day that the bullshit over 100,000 tests were supposedly (but very much not) met, with the most disgusting, victorious smile on his face - a punch in the air, iirc - he may as well as have done a little jump in the air while he kicked his feet together, the self-serving dishonest, manipulative prick.

Also, predictably - UK government 'using pandemic to transfer NHS duties to private sector'
 
Re: the twitter thing above, I really want to know what an asymptotic health worker is. Do they tend towards something without actually ever quite getting there? Kind of like Matt Hancock then I guess.
 
Re: the twitter thing above, I really want to know what an asymptotic health worker is. Do they tend towards something without actually ever quite getting there? Kind of like Matt Hancock then I guess.

That confused me for a while until I realized that the correct (I think :confused:) word is asymptomatic,.
 
Fucking hell, I do find it interesting seeing how the individual's react during briefings. Today we have the amazing team of Raab, who seems to be trying to stick another line in, 'SAVE THE ECONOMY'...in addition to the usual, along with Prof Mclean, who always passes on questions thrown back to her 'No, I think you've answered that.' (she knows they haven't, obvs) but shot right in to embrace South Korea as the example, to test and trace, with ease.
I say 'interesting' but obvs mean 'extremely fucking alarming', when they vere so wildly between what's right to do next when they've specifically discounted the importance of such measures previously even allowing for the changing situation.
 
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The next few SAGE documents contain plenty of signs of u-turn. In a March 12th document, the behavioural sub group were responding to SAGE asking its subgroups to reconsider advice on public gatherings.

SPI-B: Insights on public gatherings (12 March 2020)

They reasserted what they had previously said about expectations of how government would react will be set by media reports of public health strategies in other countries. They provice some updating polling on related matters, and mention that since then public gatherings have been banned to varying degrees in multiple European countries. They also say:

Acting in a way that does not meet expectations poses a risk that a section of the public will view Government actions as incompetent or not in the public’s best interests. It may also be taken as signifying that the situation is not expected to be severe for the UK. This could have knock-on implications for public attitudes to other recommendations made by Government.

And

In our report of 25 February on the risk of public disorder, we noted that the risk of public disorder would be higher if there was a perception that the Government’s response was not competent.

They also repeat what they said on 4th of March, including the one view that no doubt lead to the herd immunity public comms disaster, and say that this position has not changed. I may as well quote it again too, since it is such a 'classic'.

“SPI-B have divergent opinions on the impact of not applying widescale social isolation at the same time as recommending [protective] isolation to at-risk groups. One view is that explaining that healthy members of the community are building some immunity will make this acceptable. Another view is that recommending isolation to only one section of society risks causing discontent.”
This position has not changed.

Finally they refer to two questions many members of the public have following the previous days COBR decision, one of which is “Why is the Government not recommending specific social distancing measures
when other countries are.” Their response was:

SPI-B has pointed out repeatedly that trust will be lost in sections of the public if measures witnessed in other countries are not adopted in the UK and that not pursuing such routes needs to be well explained. Communications is not within SPI-B’s remit, but this point bears repeating again.

The other documents arent so quotable and may have been discussed before. But there is a paragraph and a grid in the following document from just before our full 'lockdown' that I should probably highlight. Read the whole thing if you want to understand the context better, I am very much cherry picking.

Options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures (22 March 2020)

Perceived threat: A substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened; it could be that they are reassured by the low death rate in their demographic group (8), although levels of concern may be rising (9). Having a good understanding of the risk has been found to be positively associated with adoption of COVID-19 social distancing measures in Hong Kong (10). The perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging. To be effective this must also empower people by making clear the actions they can take to reduce the threat.

Screenshot 2020-05-05 at 18.56.12.png
All documents from this and my previous post on the subject are from Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE): Coronavirus (COVID-19) response
 
The next few SAGE documents contain plenty of signs of u-turn. In a March 12th document, the behavioural sub group were responding to SAGE asking its subgroups to reconsider advice on public gatherings.

SPI-B: Insights on public gatherings (12 March 2020)

They reasserted what they had previously said about expectations of how government would react will be set by media reports of public health strategies in other countries. They provice some updating polling on related matters, and mention that since then public gatherings have been banned to varying degrees in multiple European countries. They also say:



And



They also repeat what they said on 4th of March, including the one view that no doubt lead to the herd immunity public comms disaster, and say that this position has not changed. I may as well quote it again too, since it is such a 'classic'.



Finally they refer to two questions many members of the public have following the previous days COBR decision, one of which is “Why is the Government not recommending specific social distancing measures
when other countries are.” Their response was:



The other documents arent so quotable and may have been discussed before. But there is a paragraph and a grid in the following document from just before our full 'lockdown' that I should probably highlight. Read the whole thing if you want to understand the context better, I am very much cherry picking.

Options for increasing adherence to social distancing measures (22 March 2020)



View attachment 210955
All documents from this and my previous post on the subject are from Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE): Coronavirus (COVID-19) response
no one will ever call them appeasers of course. not that anyone would make crass comparisons with the '39-'45 war :rolleyes:
 
involves isolation of symptomatic cases and isolation of at-risk members of the public

This bit that you quote elbows was never going to work without being backed up with rigorous testing and tracing as you need to know who is at risk from contact with symptomatic cases. And because without tests people would not self isolate. Putting it onto individuals to say to their boss I maybe have covid or a cold or something so see ya in a week! when we have such a suspicious attitude to sick leave. As the behaviour unit they should know what a shitty attitude we have. They're not even succeeding at behavioural science let alone any other.
 
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