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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

littlebabyjesus said:
Bit apprehensive about that. Bit more snooping. But the qs seem fair. And yeah can see that the info could be really useful regarding working out the next stages of what to do. Be interesting to see the sickness numbers for those who tick the last category - leave the house regularly - compared to the rest.
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Screenshot_20200419-122933_COVID Symptom Tracker.jpg
 
SheilaNaGig said:
If your shadow is longer than you are tall (is that the case at 7AM at the moment? ) then you’re not going to be mad making Vitamin D, regardless of how long you’re standing there naked.
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You would if you stood there for 5 hours, provided you hadn't been arrested by then.
treelover said:
interesting that 'Mike Carter' in his reply doesn't include any images of the Daily Express attacking benefit claimants' which it also did/does all the time.
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Well he does ("KICK OUT ALL FOREIGN BENEFIT CHEATS"), but the collage was clearly put together to highlight the way The Express consistently attempts to stir up hatred towards migrants. If you want to highlight their bias against benefits claimants you could compile your own collage. It shouldn't take long.

 
littlebabyjesus said:
Well yes, they need to have been working on a system for that from day 1 of lockdown. Test, trace, isolate is the long-term way to control this, in whatever form that takes (doesn't necessarily need to involve heavy-handed coercion, if done with sensitivity and sufficient daily support networks in place). That's been obvious from the start.

And that is probably the honest answer to the UK's lack of a lockdown end date. They can't announce one until they've got their act together on a testing regime. But they can't admit that they don't have their act together yet, so they'll keep deflecting and blaming us for not keeping to the rules.

The excuses will wear thin. Germany has all that testing cos they've got 70 years of tradition and infrastructure to draw on, apparently. So what's the excuse for not being able to match Portugal, then?
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Couple of thoughts that have been spinning around my head re the UK approach... What's kind of striking is that - after a decade of Tory rule - the government is leaning more heavily than ever on large, centralised public bodies and a limited, technocratic approach hinged around political appointees. It absolutely flies in the face of their professed ideology of encouraging independent innovation. Where they do seek to outsource, they are stymied by their attachment to a limited number of businesses that have - coincidentally I'm sure - lined their pockets in the past.

In terms of public discipline there seems to be a huge disconnect between them and the populace as a whole. They are heavily reliant on police action rather than community solidarity... There have been some successes; like it or not I do think the Thursday clap serves as a reminder of the general state of things. But contrast the general situation with e.g that Merkel explanation of R0 significance, communication of the facts around the disease has been abysmal.

They have put the lie to two fundamental pillars of their party; a dynamic free market, and the promotion of traditional community values. The former turns out to be a kind of limited sycophantocracy ( :hmm: ). The latter has been fractured by years of austerity and a deliberate dismantling of long-standing communities and modes of organisation.
 
Cid said:
Couple of thoughts that have been spinning around my head re the UK approach... What's kind of striking is that - after a decade of Tory rule - the government is leaning more heavily than ever on large, centralised public bodies and a limited, technocratic approach hinged around political appointees. It absolutely flies in the face of their professed ideology of encouraging independent innovation. Where they do seek to outsource, they are stymied by their attachment to a limited number of businesses that have - coincidentally I'm sure - lined their pockets in the past.

In terms of public discipline there seems to be a huge disconnect between them and the populace as a whole. They are heavily reliant on police action rather than community solidarity... There have been some successes; like it or not I do think the Thursday clap serves as a reminder of the general state of things. But contrast the general situation with e.g that Merkel explanation of R0 significance, communication of the facts around the disease has been abysmal.

They have put the lie to two fundamental pillars of their party; a dynamic free market, and the promotion of traditional community values. The former turns out to be a kind of limited sycophantocracy ( :hmm: ). The latter has been fractured by years of austerity and a deliberate dismantling of long-standing communities and modes of organisation.
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The centralisation is key here. And it's something the Tories often do while pretending to do the reverse. 'Free' schools and academies are a good illustration of that.

Countries with very decentralised control systems, like Germany or Switzerland, are not coincidentally coping much better.

Blair was bad for this as well tbf.
 
There's a lot of people still having to go to work - both key workers and people doing non-essential jobs - and often contact with people part of that work (whether care worker or builder) - and I doubt there's any sort of accurate figure available. So i think that question is well-worded and can understand what they're trying to find out through it.
 
Cid said:
Couple of thoughts that have been spinning around my head re the UK approach... What's kind of striking is that - after a decade of Tory rule - the government is leaning more heavily than ever on large, centralised public bodies and a limited, technocratic approach hinged around political appointees. It absolutely flies in the face of their professed ideology of encouraging independent innovation. Where they do seek to outsource, they are stymied by their attachment to a limited number of businesses that have - coincidentally I'm sure - lined their pockets in the past.

In terms of public discipline there seems to be a huge disconnect between them and the populace as a whole. They are heavily reliant on police action rather than community solidarity... There have been some successes; like it or not I do think the Thursday clap serves as a reminder of the general state of things. But contrast the general situation with e.g that Merkel explanation of R0 significance, communication of the facts around the disease has been abysmal.

They have put the lie to two fundamental pillars of their party; a dynamic free market, and the promotion of traditional community values. The former turns out to be a kind of limited sycophantocracy ( :hmm: ). The latter has been fractured by years of austerity and a deliberate dismantling of long-standing communities and modes of organisation.
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Some good points here Cid,. I'd throw in an inefficient stratgey of relying on brand names rather than harnessing the collective will of smaller businesses, a flawed and increasingly technocratic state backed up by Police powers ,add the suspension of Parliament to that (which if you didnt know it was suspended you frankly wouldnt be aware.)
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The centralisation is key here. And it's something the Tories often do while pretending to do the reverse. 'Free' schools and academies are a good illustration of that.

Countries with very decentralised control systems, like Germany or Switzerland, are not coincidentally coping much better.

Blair was bad for this as well tbf.
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Hmm... I'm not really sure I agree that centralism is key. I mean two most powerful states; China and the US. One an extreme example of centralism, the other an extreme of federalism. I'm not about to say China is great, the early failings here were pretty damning. But the ability to close specific regions, to have extremely well-controlled lockdowns does show some benefits of that system. They are definitely not worth it. Just to be very clear... And also they do rely on some things that are arguably decentralised in an odd sense (local party cadres and the like), which certainly help in terms of adherence to lockdown rules etc. In contrast the US is... just fucked. Well... an unclear picture as yet, genuinely hope they blag it somehow.

SK afaik is also not particularly decentralized (I mean half the population live in Seoul and the cities around it). And it has certainly relied on a degree of central power in operating regional closures, quickly rolling out various aspects of its test and trace policy and the like.

That said I can kind of see it in those terms. The UK tory lead government is centralised in a particularly stultifying way... Massive power in the hands of a very small group of people. Very little in the hands of local government. In a way that is totally at odds with the ideology they profess.
 
crossthebreeze said:
There's a lot of people still having to go to work - both key workers and people doing non-essential jobs - and often contact with people part of that work (whether care worker or builder) - and I doubt there's any sort of accurate figure available. So i think that question is well-worded and can understand what they're trying to find out through it.
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There are quite a few people (myself included) who are... On the borderlines. I definitely can't work from home (cabinet-maker), but equally certainly nothing essential about my job. I have to keep working as I've not really got any clear picture of what's happening for the rest of the year; did get the rates grant (shared between 4, so £2.5k) which is obviously helpful, but yeah. I felt entirely comfortable answering that question honestly, I might have been... less inclined to... if they'd worded it differently.
 
Cid said:
Couple of thoughts that have been spinning around my head re the UK approach... What's kind of striking is that - after a decade of Tory rule - the government is leaning more heavily than ever on large, centralised public bodies and a limited, technocratic approach hinged around political appointees. It absolutely flies in the face of their professed ideology of encouraging independent innovation. Where they do seek to outsource, they are stymied by their attachment to a limited number of businesses that have - coincidentally I'm sure - lined their pockets in the past.

In terms of public discipline there seems to be a huge disconnect between them and the populace as a whole. They are heavily reliant on police action rather than community solidarity... There have been some successes; like it or not I do think the Thursday clap serves as a reminder of the general state of things. But contrast the general situation with e.g that Merkel explanation of R0 significance, communication of the facts around the disease has been abysmal.

They have put the lie to two fundamental pillars of their party; a dynamic free market, and the promotion of traditional community values. The former turns out to be a kind of limited sycophantocracy ( :hmm: ). The latter has been fractured by years of austerity and a deliberate dismantling of long-standing communities and modes of organisation.
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I reckon the mainstay of compliance to stay indoors is not to obey government but to protect the NHS.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Frank was being kind to you, tbh.

Fuck off, you cunt.

We can all see what you are.
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Whilst internet fora undoubtedly provides some intellectual discussion and occasional erudite wit, unfortunately, it also provides a platform to a number of insignificant people who in the real world wouldn't even give one a second glance, never mind confront them with derogatory remarks. These people (I'm being kind in using the word ''people'') spend their entire waking lives flitting between so called ''social media'' sites, hiding behind the cloaks of anonymity for the sole purpose of scribing at best, one liner puerile insults aimed primarily at those who don't happen to concur with their narrow minded beliefs. In some cases, there doesn't even have to be a reason for this type of behaviour pattern, it may be as simple as having being bullied at school, or being an underachiever et al.

Then of course there are the ''Politically Correct'' apparatchiks who police the internet in the vain hope they might find some form of minor indiscretion which they can capitalise on to forward their Orwellian agendas. A typical example falling foul of the aforementioned being the ex Essex cricketer, Don Topley, who was dismissed from the BBC commentary team for reciting a harmless cricketing ode at a ''private'' college after dinner speech. Apparently he had incurred the wrath of some feminist drudge, no man would afford a second glance to, who seized upon the opportunity to grab her 15 mins. of fame by walking out and complaining on Twitter, or some other such media platform.

If its any consolation, I think you're right, I should and will fuck off, if for no other reason, I don't subscribe to Mutual Admiration Societies.
 
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Get on with it and fuck off back to the Jordan Peterson appreciation society then. Going on ignore for now, but if this idiot sticks around maybe a thread ban if not a full ban.
 
Diatribe said:
Whilst internet fora undoubtedly provides some intellectual discussion and occasional erudite wit, unfortunately, it also gives a platform to a number of insignificant people who in the real world wouldn't even give one a second glance, never mind confront them with derogatory remarks. These people (I'm being kind in using the word ''people'') spend their entire waking lives flitting between so called ''social media'' sites, hiding behind the cloaks of anonymity for the sole purpose of scribing at best, one liner, puerile insults aimed primarily at those who don't happen to concur with their narrow minded beliefs. In some cases, there doesn't even have to be a reason for this type of behaviour pattern, it may be as simple as having being bullied at school, or being an underachiever et al.

Then of course there are the ''Politically Correct'' apparatchiks who police the internet in the vain hope they might find some form of minor indiscretion which they can capitalise on to forward their Orwellian agendas. A typical example falling foul of the aforementioned being the ex Essex cricketer, Don Topley, who was dismissed from the BBC commentary team for reciting a harmless cricketing ode at a ''private'' college after dinner speech. Apparently he had incurred the wrath of some feminist drudge, no man would afford a second glance to, who seized upon the opportunity to gain her 15 mins. of fame by walking out and complaining on Twitter, or some other such media platform.

If its any consolation, I think you're right, I should and will fuck off, if for no other reason, I don't subscribe to Mutual Admiration Societies.
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TLDR, but fuck off anyway.
 
treelover said:
The DWP will love this app.
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The DWP are not getting the data (, and there are completely legal reasons why people might be leaving the house and coming into contact with others.
I do know that the DWP does carry out surveillance, but it is scaremongering to say that is the point of this app.
Summary of the app's privacy policy:
  • Your data is protected under GDPR, and can only be used for the purpose that you consent to. That means it can only be used for medical science and to help the NHS.
  • This is a not-for-profit initiative, and your data will not be used for commercial purposes.
  • We try to minimise the amount of personally identifiable information we collect (eg. year of birth but not date of birth), while recognising that the research requires it.
  • The data you share will be used for research purposes by King's College London, Guys & St Thomas' Hospitals and data scientists at ZOE Global Ltd. It may also be shared with the the UK National Health Service.
  • Anonymised data may be shared with partner research institutions. To do so, an anonymous code will be generated to replace your personal details. Our partner institutions include: Harvard University, Stanford University, Massachusetts General Hospital, Tufts University, Berkeley University, Nottingham University, University of Trento and Lundt University. Some of these research institutions are in the US, and so are not governed by GDPR, and our privacy policy explains this.
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treelover said:
The DWP will love this app.
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That was an immediate concern for me as well. I think they have worded it with that in mind, though. eg there are plenty of people not working with entirely legitimate reasons to be leaving the home regularly, including people who are official or unofficial carers and need to drop in on/run errands for vulnerable people on a daily basis. I think this info, as worded, is ok.
 
purenarcotic said:
Have KCL said they will be sharing the individual data with the DWP? They aren’t listed in the ‘privacy’ section as one of the organisations listed that will be reviewing the data. Public Health haven’t been listed either.
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I don't entirely trust organisations who collect data not to share it more widely than they say they will, tbf. However, I don't think this particular wording could be used as a stick to beat people with - I think it shows they're sensitive to the issue.
 
Like it or not this kind of data is going to be vital for any serious effort to manage post-lockdown outbreaks. Even with a comprehensive test program.
 
Cid said:
Like it or not this kind of data is going to be vital for any serious effort to manage post-lockdown outbreaks. Even with a comprehensive test program.
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Totally. Which is why I'm signed up. We need a lot more of it. We also still need to keep one eye on privacy issues, though.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I don't entirely trust organisations who collect data not to share it more widely than they say they will, tbf. However, I don't think this particular wording could be used as a stick to beat people with - I think it shows they're sensitive to the issue.
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Have you downloaded the app to asses the level of personal information it asks you for when you first set it up?
 
purenarcotic said:
Have you downloaded the app to asses the level of personal information it asks you for when you first set it up?
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Sorry I don't understand the question. I'm on this thing. Have been for a while. I don't think treelover should worry about this particular instance (though I could be wrong), but I don't think it's wrong to be worried in general about such things, especially as the govt is apparently working on a similar thing of its own.
 
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