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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

What do you do if you can't afford the quarantine bill on your return?
In theory you have to buy the quarantine before you travel or you won't be allowed on the flight.

I understand that it's worse for Australian expats trying to get back home. 1) limited numbers so you have to wait months 2) paying for quarantine on arrival and 3) flights cost an absolute bomb, and you probably need to buy a business class ticket or you will get bumped
 
This seems like good news
Oh they have noticed the wastewater surveillance that is part of the weekly modelling report that article mentions. This is the same stuff I mentioned from the previous few weekly reports, and it sounds like the situation has continued in the manner first hinted at in the previous weeks report. Wastewater Covid levels higher than number of positive cases detected imply they should be.

Among the data the report looks at is wastewater monitoring.

It says Covid-19 RNA concentrations have fallen by about 20%, although the current levels of wastewater Covid are still in a similar range to late January/early February.

The report says wastewater Covid-19 levels continue to be higher than would be expected given the current rate of new cases.

The South Lanarkshire local authority overall wastewater Covid-19 level is significantly above the national average, in contrast to the low levels of new cases.
 
Oh they have noticed the wastewater surveillance that is part of the weekly modelling report that article mentions. This is the same stuff I mentioned from the previous few weekly reports, and it sounds like the situation has continued in the manner first hinted at in the previous weeks report. Wastewater Covid levels higher than number of positive cases detected imply they should be.

No one has published enough about UK wastewater analysis to assure me they can make accurate comparisons between areas over time, or confidently relate unexpected changes in a particular area to actual infection levels. For example, sewage systems in different locations would be expected to respond differently to varying inputs over time, and the type of properties, urban/rural setting etc would affect this.

This is what the gov say:

"Estimating infection rates

Some studies have shown SARS-CoV-2 RNA concentrations to correlate with COVID-19 cases. However, exact infection rates cannot yet be calculated from SARS-CoV-2 wastewater monitoring. This is because calculating exact infection rates from a sample relies on knowing how much virus is released from faeces and/or urine during different infection stages and how long it can persist in different sewer networks. Researchers do not know this yet for SARS-CoV-2. Instead, scientists are starting to estimate viral RNA concentrations per inhabitant based on wastewater monitoring. For this, scientists need to know how many people are contributing to a wastewater sample and if rain and/or industrial wastewater diluted the sample. This is important so that monitoring results can be compared over time and across different regions...."

All sorts of things can affect the dilution and degradation of RNA in sewage systems, from rainfall to whether the local authority puts bleach block toilet cleaners in school cisterns or whatever.
 
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The other drawback to waste water surveillance is that many if not most rural locations are "off-grid" as the inhabitants rely on septic tanks and bio-disc or similar reed-bed systems ...

I live a couple of miles outside a small rural town (with a population of under 4,000) and we have a septic tank, as do all the surrounding farm-houses ( & the largest "small hotel / pub" a mile or two away has a bio-disc plant ) ...
 
The other drawback to waste water surveillance is that many if not most rural locations are "off-grid" as the inhabitants rely on septic tanks and bio-disc or similar reed-bed systems ...

I live a couple of miles outside a small rural town (with a population of under 4,000) and we have a septic tank, as do all the surrounding farm-houses ( & the largest "small hotel / pub" a mile or two away has a bio-disc plant ) ...
Yeah thats not the sort of surveillance its good for.
 
No one has published enough about UK wastewater analysis to assures me they can make accurate comparisons between areas over time, or confidently relate unexpected changes in a particular area to actual infection levels. For example, sewage systems n different locations would be expected to respond differently to varying inputs over time, and the type of properties, urban/rural setting etc would affect this.

This is what the gov say:

"Estimating infection rates

Some studies have shown SARS-CoV-2 RNA concentrations to correlate with COVID-19 cases. However, exact infection rates cannot yet be calculated from SARS-CoV-2 wastewater monitoring. This is because calculating exact infection rates from a sample relies on knowing how much virus is released from faeces and/or urine during different infection stages and how long it can persist in different sewer networks. Researchers do not know this yet for SARS-CoV-2. Instead, scientists are starting to estimate viral RNA concentrations per inhabitant based on wastewater monitoring. For this, scientists need to know how many people are contributing to a wastewater sample and if rain and/or industrial wastewater diluted the sample. This is important so that monitoring results can be compared over time and across different regions...."

All sorts of things can affect the dilution and degradation of RNA in sewage systems, from rainfall to whether the local authority puts bleach block toilet cleaners in school cisterns or whatever.
I've seen enough to know that its useful for trend monitoring, though I wouldnt want to use it as the only source of info. It compliments other data streams in a useful way. The document you linked to mentions that they can use it for trends more than for estimating exact infection rates.

I was quite impressed with some of the outbreaks they managed to detect using this method during pilot trial stages. In terms of its usefulness in spotting real things in a situation like the recent/current one, it will be interesting to see if the patterns being seen in Scotland end up revealing a situation that is then confirmed by other means, or whether its a false signal and they learn something some about the limitations as a result.

I do get sad when I read documents like the one you posted because its another of the official docs that teased me by suggesting such data would be added to the dashboard 'soon'. But as such articles tended to emerge in November and December last year, they did not live up to that aim.
 
And I dont blame you for being far from convinced at this stage. At least Scotland releasing some of their data & analysis means we get a chance to judge this stuff on a certain level at least. If I had the England data I could judge it similarly, see how well it seems to fit with other indicators as this wave evolves.
 
Speaking of experts and what they genuinely believed, these days many themes that relate to children are where the greatest contentions within the scientific community that share their thoughts publicly are to be found. It can get quite nasty at times, rows between scientists may involve less swear words but get personal just as quickly as any other disagreement. There will be the usual mix of reasons for this - emotive issues that come automatically from issues involving children, but also the same stuff I mentioned earlier about unthinkable implications that it is more convenient to deny (eg matters with an impact on the merits of schools closures = childcare issues = workforce issues). And the continual friction between 'what should really be done' and things like vaccine supply realities. Its no surprise that Indie SAGE get into scraps about issues on this front all the time, and that nearly everyone cherry picks angles that serve their overall stance well.
The very next day after I said that, indie SAGE had a child from an at-risk group on their live stream to ask a question.

This went down very badly in some quarters. Some of the complaints seem reasonable, but part of the poor reaction to this is from people in positions of responsibility whose stances failed children like this, and they really dont like being called out for it or having their judgement questioned at all. They consider themselves to be oh so bloody reasonable, grounded in reality where difficult decisions and balances have to be made, and they are not up for being shamed by indie SAGE. Often their line of attack turns to the unaccountability of indie SAGE, or descends to the depths of scientists shouting at each other to stay in their own specialist lanes.

I dont spend that much time studying this stuff, I jsut see a fraction of it while scrolling through a list of pandemic-relevant accounts that I threw together on twitter some time ago. Indie SAGE are far from perfect and some of the complaints are fair enough, but I cannot help but notice that some of those complaining are experts whose utterances at the early stages of the pandemic were not very impressive to me at the time. Overall they were still fine in terms of pandemic attitude, but their limitations were exposed when it came to specific details, and those same flaws are still in play now. I often speak broadly about experts and the establishment, without delving too deeply into what constitutes the establishment. Well meaning experts whose sights have been narrowed by the realities of their jobs, the system, the available resources, the priorities and what is considered reasonable, trapped by 'the way things are done round here'. Even where they may hate some of those systemic limitations, they end up becoming part of the system that upholds such flaws and entrenches mediocrity. They end up having to justify the unjustifiable, and jumping through such hoops becomes second nature to them, so they react badly when this is challenged.
 
Just been watching the Anti-Vaxxer morons in London, they just spout complete falsehoods as if they are facts, really makes me sad that there is such a large cadre of idiots spreading that crap
 
Just been watching the Anti-Vaxxer morons in London, they just spout complete falsehoods as if they are facts, really makes me sad that there is such a large cadre of idiots spreading that crap
What interests me is the average level of biological education in the general populace.
I was dismayed to learn that my sister thought the AstraZeneca vaccine she had been given was an MRNA vaccine ...
 
According to the ONS, vaccine hesitancy has dropped amongst the younger age groups, with 16-17 age olds it has decreased from 14% to 11%, 18-21's went down to 5% from 9%, 22-25's down to 9% from 10%, which sounds good.

But, it's not reflected in the numbers having had their first jabs, despite the threat of vaccine passports for clubs., etc., and more recently bribes, the numbers are depressingly low in England with 18-24's at just 60.1%, and 25-29's at just 60.7%. (source - government dashboard) 🤷‍♂️

 
There is a huge tier of establishment psychology that thinks it can measure attitudes of people as if they are consistent (if not constant) and that attitudes define behaviour. Neither thing is true. I am not remotely surprised that asking people what they think of taking vaccines can be inconsistent with how many people actually take vaccines. The former is a contextual construction created in the moment, the latter is based on the material reality of peoples’ lives and their priorities day to day.
 
There is a huge tier of establishment psychology that thinks it can measure attitudes of people as if they are consistent (if not constant) and that attitudes define behaviour. Neither thing is true. I am not remotely surprised that asking people what they think of taking vaccines can be inconsistent with how many people actually take vaccines. The former is a contextual construction created in the moment, the latter is based on the material reality of peoples’ lives and their priorities day to day.

I had someone in to get their vaccine a few months ago who.... had had covid, but didn't believe covid was real, didn't trust the vaccine or want one, yet was there to get the vaccine. I chatted to them a bit and couldn't make much sense of any of it. I'm not sure they would have been an easily categorized survey subject!
 
the numbers in the young being low reflect a cohort that can't really be bothered rather than hesitancy as such, I'd imagine. Like with voting etc
I think the whole use of the term "vaccine hesitancy" is problematic or at least unhelpful.

There is a whole range of reasons why people, whatever their age, might not have got tested, and lumping them all together as "hesitant", with the unstated implications behind that word, doesn't shed any real light on the range of reasons or what might be done to persuade those who haven't been vaccinated.

But I guess the "couldn't be bothered" slice is likely to be bigger in younger cohorts than older, as you suggest.
 
I think that even with full vaccinations covid will not go away, people who are vaccinated are catching it still and spreading it presumably. I can't see a rational behind getting vaccinated other than protecting yourself from hospitalisation which appears to be successful and that is vital but it is not stopping covid in any sense. I think it could well be a leak from a lab and this is why everything is so heavy handed regarding testing and data collection because they have no idea if it will get worse or not. That's as far as I go with conspiracies but I get why others are going for more nutty stuff.
As a caveat I don't understand virology but if 80% of the global population(we don't seem to be sharing) are not vaccinated it stands to reason we will be getting more shots for a long time.
 
I think that even with full vaccinations covid will not go away, people who are vaccinated are catching it still and spreading it presumably. I can't see a rational behind getting vaccinated other than protecting yourself from hospitalisation which appears to be successful and that is vital but it is not stopping covid in any sense. I think it could well be a leak from a lab and this is why everything is so heavy handed regarding testing and data collection because they have no idea if it will get worse or not. That's as far as I go with conspiracies but I get why others are going for more nutty stuff.
As a caveat I don't understand virology but if 80% of the global population(we don't seem to be sharing) are not vaccinated it stands to reason we will be getting more shots for a long time.

I dont quite get one of your points because I dont see what difference the origin of the virus in humans would make towards future possibilities. Regardless of the starting point, mutations are random errors that happen naturally, but with selection pressure involved in various circumstances, and more opportunities to mutate the more infections occur. Whether the virus went straight from animals to humans or whether this happened via an intermediate lab accident stage makes no difference to these latter mutation events. And even an extreme hypothesis where some lab engineering was involved doesnt mean that the future mutations will then follow a pre-conceived human plan.
 
I appreciate your reply elbows as I said without a successful global vaccination program if what you say is correct about reduced mutation then we still won't be getting anywhere.
For example reduced selection opertunities in bacteria has led diectly to more resistance in relation to antibiotics. A potential nightmare in the near future, which I believe is fueling much of the medical research into viruses. Already a virus has been made that eats c diff which is as you may know a nasty bacteria that destroys the bowel and attacks people on antibiotics.
 
It is true that some recent studies have found similar viral loads in vaccinated people who have caught the virus and those who were not vaccinated. So the hope on that front is now more concentrated on how much less likely vaccinated people are to catch it in the first place.
 
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