Corbyn - connecting with the traditional labour vote...

[SaskiaJayne]

I think some MP got murdered or something the other day.

Do you really think we are at the stage where elected MPs cannot walk the streets? Perhaps I'm too fuckin' old. I remember Harold Wilson as prime minister walking the streets talking to reporters & so on, no security at all. I really don't know what the answer is then? Somehow Labour MPs need to connect with the people who should be voting for them.

 

[binka]

Is he? I'm not too sure. From what I've seen it's that city liberal young base that's his main, perhaps only, support. I had a student come into work yesterday who I used to chat to and I brought up the topic, she was very loud in her defence of him and in attacking these plotters. I kinda felt attacked by her myself and I'm not even against Corbyn! He does have very strong support but only in that base, I've not seen any evidence outside that other than a kind of 'well, he's a nice bloke' but not loads of enthusiasm for him. Having said that there's even less support for the plotting cunts, why they think otherwise is a mystery. Either way I think labour are pretty much finished, especially amongst it's traditional support. Won't stop me chucking 3 quid at it's dying corpse for a laugh and voting for Corbyn though.

Yes he definitely is. My dad is typical of this - mid 60s, been a member since the 80s, working class gmb shop steward, has been a councillor and active clp member going to various conferences over the years. Was being bullied out of the clp by progress types who wanted to remove the last remaining actual working class union members by making false accusations of harassment of the local candidate in the last election in order they not be selected as candidates for local council.

Anyway he fucking loves Corbyn and the way the Progress types in the clp have either wound their necks in or fucked off entirely since he became leader.

(btw the local candidate making accusations of harassment resigned from the party rather than answer questions before a disciplinary committee)

 

[butchersapron]

Do you really think we are at the stage where elected MPs cannot walk the streets? Perhaps I'm too fuckin' old. I remember Harold Wilson as prime minister walking the streets talking to reporters & so on, no security at all. I really don't know what the answer is then? Somehow Labour MPs need to connect with the people who should be voting for them.

This is pointless but just to clarify - you said that no one is going to shoot an MP, this is the UK after all. Lats week an MP was shot. In the UK. Not interested in anything else.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Politics breaks my heart. Haven't read the newspapers watched the news in any meaningful way for about 15 years. I just get the stuff that filters through.

Haven't been involved in politics, except some personal issues with bureaucracies, for a long time more isolated than ever recently.

Oh well, I don't think I could explain my politics anyway. Enough to say, they have become more nondenominational lately. Mainly through talking to real fascists, Brexit supporters, Britain 1st types. And I have come to the conclusion, it is a complete waste of time trying to change people's viewpoints on such issues. I have kind of come to the conclusion politics is religion, and religion is politics.

However, fascist or freedom fighter, it seems humans generally genuinely do want a better world. I haven't met a 1 who doesn't see the means as being part of creating a greater end.

Perhaps I'm projecting. But I think,,,,,, well I hope more than anything, that Momentum might be a multidenominational inclusive movement, seeking consensus.

It's hard though isn't it. The world is dialectical. So how do you create a consensus for a better world, in a world so distorted by the power of the elites?

Oh well, sorry for rambling. I just wish something would happen that is positive. And that would mean not just connecting with the old Labour electorate, but with anyone who wants to make the world better place. How hard can it be to make a world better than this?

PS. For those who remember me, my life has been transformed lately. :-D I feel like Nelson Mandela. The world is so much more accessible. This is the kind of thing I'd been up to.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Yes he definitely is. My dad is typical of this - mid 60s, been a member since the 80s, working class gmb shop steward, has been a councillor and active clp member going to various conferences over the years. Was being bullied out of the clp by progress types who wanted to remove the last remaining actual working class union members by making false accusations of harassment of the local candidate in the last election in order they not be selected as candidates for local council.

Anyway he fucking loves Corbyn and the way the Progress types in the clp have either wound their necks in or fucked off entirely since he became leader.

(btw the local candidate making accusations of harassment resigned from the party rather than answer questions before a disciplinary committee)

I hope this translates more widely. I'm genuinely not sure if it does or not, he certainly has the favoured policies but it's the fact he's from that metropolitan liberal class, ya know, the class that just got told to suck a sack of goat cock by the electorate, particularly labour's traditional electorate, that makes me think he doesn't translate wide enough to win a general election. McDonnell seems to be Corbyn with teeth so I'd much prefer him at the helm really, not saying he should plot against Corbyn as well because that would be suicide but someone with the same policies but with teeth is what's needed I think.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

This is pointless but just to clarify - you said that no one is going to shoot an MP, this is the UK after all. Lats week an MP was shot. In the UK. Not interested in anything else.

Of course you are not, all you are interested in is winning petty arguments on here. To me Corbyn seems so inoffensive, why should anybody want to harm him is what I meant. Of course reality bites but do all MPs nowadays have to walk around at all times surrounded by armed security? I think not. There is a barrier that exists between the parliamentary Labour party & the people they need to vote for them & who should be voting Labour. How do you break down that barrier?

 

[IC3D]

Handful of leavers I know voted because of outsourcing work in the oil industry, lack of apprenticeships and Union betrayals relating to outsourcing mainly. Not racist but very bitter. Importantly life long Labour supporters previously.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Lapavitsas: The Left Needs to Develop an Alternative Plan for Europe

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Handful of leavers I know voted because of outsourcing work in the oil industry, lack of apprenticeships and Union betrayals relating to outsourcing mainly. Not racist but very bitter. Importantly life long Labour supporters previously.

They might vote Labour again provided the party stops blaming Corbyn for the 'wrong' result & start understanding that for a large number, perhaps most of potential Labour voters leave was the right result & Labour needs to start agreeing that leave was the right result for Labour if they want to form the next government.

 

[IC3D]

I think he should strongly make the case for Brexit Labour now while the Torys are wobbling. Corbynistas will have to swallow some of their prejudice, he could have done with acting more decisively at PMQ's today.

 

[BigMoaner]

My wife comes from a very working class northern labour voting family and town. All voted exit. Facebook pages of "taking country back" and "guarding borders" etc. They always vote labour, like a natural impulse, but are very socially conservative. They don't want to see their town change, like the royals, suspicious of foreigners, think the family is the bedrock, tough on crime, etc etc. All of this, but life long labour. I a have always felt that ukip, not the tories, could steal them away

 

[BigMoaner]

I have no idea of brexit will be the best for working class people in uk. Maybe it will? Time will tell.

 

[IC3D]

Im sure there are ways to support UK and EU workers. Quotas on Certain workforces for British nationals and support for training them. Allow EU citizens to work but ring fence certain industries in areas of unemployment. Probably break some EU directive but..oh wait

 

[BigMoaner]

The thing that confuses me with the left and immigration is...the numbers. Ok, we have almost 60 million people in this country. So for anyone who believes open borders is a good thing, at what point do you say "that's enough, time for controls". 100million? If u have net migration of 200k, that's a large town in size each year. How many large towns until enough? How many more cars on the road? Or people on tube? Just keep building until the Island can cope with what 150mil? 260mil? The left have never been clear about this.

 

[BigMoaner]

And the above query/worry has literally FUCK all to do with race.

 

[chilango]

The thing that confuses me with the left and immigration is...the numbers. Ok, we have almost 60 million people in this country. So for anyone who believes open borders is a good thing, at what point do you say "that's enough, time for controls". 100million? If u have net migration of 200k, that's a large town in size each year. How many large towns until enough? How many more cars on the road? Or people on tube? Just keep building until the Island can cope with what 150mil? 260mil? The left have never been clear about this.

That can also be true of internal migration.

 

[BigMoaner]

I guess the argument could be, well when its cramped and over crowded, people wont wanna come here, but isn't that just "let the market decide" libertarian thinking that is contrary to left wing thinking anyway?

 

[JimW]

That can also be true of internal migration.

Not in quite the same way surely in terms of absolute numbers of people in the country.

 

[chilango]

Not in quite the same way surely in terms of absolute numbers of people in the country.

No. But there's many senses where that doesn't matter (e.g. Pressure on local infrastructure)

 

[JimW]

No. But there's many senses where that doesn't matter (e.g. Pressure on local infrastructure)

Yep, true enough.

 

[agricola]

How could he have gained the old labour votes by campaigning harder for the remain camp?

The only way to do it honestly is the way that he did it - point to the benefits of EU migration, the boost to the economy and the fact that all the things immigrants are blamed for (pressure on public services, pressure on social housing, worsening terms and conditions, agency labour, increased waiting lists etc) are in fact down to the austerity policies of our Government, and not down to the EU.

What Watson and more than a few others wanted to do on the other hand (ie: "listen to" concerns and try to limit EU migration) was daft both in the short and long term; in the short because if you as a voter wanted to bring about controls on EU migration then "Leave" offered a far better chance of that than "Remain", and in the long term because it is impossible because the EU will not get rid of freedom of movement.

 

[BigMoaner]

The only way to do it honestly is the way that he did it - point to the benefits of EU migration, the boost to the economy and the fact that all the things immigrants are blamed for (pressure on public services, pressure on social housing, worsening terms and conditions, agency labour, increased waiting lists etc) are in fact down to the austerity policies of our Government, and not down to the EU.

What Watson and more than a few others wanted to do on the other hand (ie: "listen to" concerns and try to limit EU migration) was daft both in the short and long term; in the short because if you as a voter wanted to bring about controls on EU migration then "Leave" offered a far better chance of that than "Remain", and in the long term because it is impossible because the EU will not get rid of freedom of movement.

so what limits, if any, would you impose on migration into UK?

 

[agricola]

so what limits, if any, would you impose on migration into UK?

On EU migration? None.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Corbyn was always a metropolitan liberal leftie. It's just that as everyone else in the PLP has rushed rightwards over the last 20 years or so he's left standing more or less alone on it's left flank.

He isn't going to be very good at "connecting with the traditional labour vote", but I'm not sure the Labour Party contains anyone who is anymore.

In terms of the traditional Labour Party base my assessment is that they are not interested or at least not interested in anything but their vote (which they took for granted for years and are now stunned as the chickens come home to roost).

The issues bubbling away amongst this constituency, which burst into full view last Thursday, haven't just arrived. They have been present for years and become more and more pronounced. The concerns cannot have escaped the attention of even the dimmest of Labour MP's or supporters. In response they have either ignored or dismised the concerns or knowingly and deliberately placed themselves on the other side of the argument.

As Joe Reilly (I think) said earlier it was socialism without the working class. It's not just every wings of the LP that this description applies to it's also true of many of the base that I described earlier.

Given the conflicting interests between the traditional vote and the metropolitan middle class Labour opted for the latter.

 

[SikhWarrioR]

I wonder how much of the anti Corbyn coup was started by blair loyalists with the imenant arrival of Chilcot and a desire to remove Corbyn a man who is a vast improvement on 20 years of blair,brown and miliband incompetence corruption and misrule todeflect as much Chilcot fallout from their beloved master blair. Meanwhile they launch a civil war to tear labour apart instead of attaching a conservative party of tax evasion, election expenses fraud investigation and cameron a dead duck [and soon to be an EX] prime minister

 

[rhod]

Corbyn prefers a thoughtful reflective style & the way of UK politics nowadays is noisy speech making full of cliche & put downs

The thing is, I can't recall a single Commons speech or response by any one of the PLP that's really hit the mark with style and precision. It wouldn't be so pathetic if there really were a few budding oratorical stars in the ranks, but there just aren't. They're mostly as dull as dishwater, and the volleys of Tory soundbites and talking points seem to win every time.

That's not Corbyn's fault, but it's so easy to blame their own shortcomings on him.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The thing is, I can't recall a single Commons speech or response by any one of the PLP that's really hit the mark with style and precision. It wouldn't be so pathetic if there really were a few budding oratorical stars in the ranks, but there just aren't. They're mostly as dull as dishwater, and the volleys of Tory soundbites and talking points seem to win every time.

That's not Corbyn's fault, but it's so easy to blame their own shortcomings on him.

Corbyn is not a natural leader. He has been involved in politics for nearly 50 years and never lead anything. Even as the Labour leader he is not leading. The unions insist his 'authority must be respected'. But he has no natural authority. This was all too evident when earlier today in attempting to answer a question his handler (carer?) rather than let him answer, literally dragged him by his jacket lapels and manhandled him away. No matter what his handler imagined he might have said, nothing could be more devastating than the image itself. No one with any real authority would allow himself to be treated in such a fashion. Had he any natural authority no one would dare.

 

[magneze]

Corbyn is not a natural leader. He has been involved in politics for nearly 50 years and never lead anything. Even as the Labour leader he is not leading. The unions insist his 'authority must be respected'. But he has no natural authority. This was all too evident when earlier today in attempting to answer a question his handler (carer?) rather than let him answer, literally dragged him by his jacket lapels and manhandled him away. No matter what his handler imagined he might have said, nothing could be more devastating than the image itself. No one with any real authority would allow himself to be treated in such a fashion. Had he any natural authority no one would dare.

Are you talking about the Momentum thing this evening?

 

[Joe Reilly]

Are you talking about the Momentum thing this evening?

I think incident in question occurred after the visit to the Polish centre...

 

[treelover]

I've had lots of arguments this week about corbyn....people are saying he should resign as he failed to connect with traditional labour voters over the referendum. Whether he goes or not doesn't really matter to me, as long as they start to address immigration and stop sticking their heads in the sand. To ignore immigration is to hand votes to the right, right?

My view is that he's anti EU, he should have fought that corner, most of the labour heartlands voted to leave anyway. Instead we have a situation where labour left immigration off their flyers which seems absurd.

How could he have gained the old labour votes by campaigning harder for the remain camp?

A massive part of the Corbyn re-election will be to defend immigration, make the positive case, Mark Serwotka was on V/Derbyshire and argued this.