Contract Q: clause agreeing to opt out of 48 hour week limit for office job. OK or no?

[fucthest8]

So yeah, basically what the title says, contract I have been given (that is for a regular office job) has this

"The Working Time Regulations 1998 impose a maximum limit for working hours to average no more than 48 hours per week (averaged over a 17-week period) except where an employee voluntarily enters into a written agreement not to be bound by this restriction.

You hereby indicate your agreement to opt out of the 48 hour average weekly limit.

You may terminate your agreement to opt out at any time by giving 1 months' written notice to the Company"

I politely asked what the thinking was, as I've only ever seen it in the context of jobs like IT Support where someone might suddenly need to work a bunch of extra hours, but that's then backed up by how overtime is handled (time off in lieu or whatever).

The response I got was "it's a standard inclusion".

Is it?! I've never had it in a contract before.

Context: v. small business, discussion is with the owner.

Ok or red flag? Was at least hoping for a more considered response.

 

[MickiQ]

Sounds dodgy to me tbh

 

[cesare]

Pretty standard. You'll want to know what your usual (as opposed to contracted) hours would be though in case working over 48 is a regular feature.

 

[Elpenor]

It is a standard inclusion in quite a few of the contracts I’ve signed over the years for office jobs in corporate environments.

What it tended to mean for me in practice is that while my hours were 9-5 for example I was expected to work beyond those when required (typically a few days a month), usually unpaid.

Your boss / business owner has probably been advised to do this by whoever gives them HR advice or perhaps their insurers.

 

[redsquirrel]

It could just be a small business taking a contract off the shelf as that is the easiest thing for them (even in large companies HR are lazy buggers, I've frequently pointed out to mine that several clauses they've out in can't apply to the parcticular job the contract is for).
But you want to know what your actual average working hours will be.

 

[editor]

Will you be getting paid overtime for those extra hours?

 

[Ax^]

as long as it states you entitled to overtime rates for these additional hours

it pretty standard in a lot of lines or work logistics being an example of one industry

 

[FridgeMagnet]

How much do you want the job? If you're not that fussed, and it's not been stated in the job description or contract or during interviews that you might need to work extra hours, then query why this is necessary.

In practice it's standard and if you're regularly being asked to do unfair hours you deal with that some other way.

 

[tim]

It is a standard inclusion in quite a few of the contracts I’ve signed over the years for office jobs in corporate environments.

What it tended to mean for me in practice is that while my hours were 9-5 for example I was expected to work beyond those when required (typically a few days a month), usually unpaid.

Your boss / business owner has probably been advised to do this by whoever gives them HR advice or perhaps their insurers.

Why were you willing to do unpaid overtime?

 

[Elpenor]

Why were you willing to do unpaid overtime?

I wouldn’t say I was ever that willing.

Of the workplaces where this happened one of them the extra hours were paid or available as TOIL. This is where I did the most extra hours.

One there was a local agreement - essentially your manager would say push off early (nothing formal). I did get 70 hours paid for a project I’d worked on

Somewhere else no compensation but got a decent bonus which would have been more than the overtime.

 

[fucthest8]

Will you be getting paid overtime for those extra hours?

Nope. However see below

as long as it states you entitled to overtime rates for these additional hours

it pretty standard in a lot of lines or work logistics being an example of one industry

Indeed, which is why I said above about my experience being that it's normally backed up by how overtime is dealt with, even if that's "just" TOIL


Edit: and to be clear, this contract has zip about overtime at all, paid or otherwise

 

[fucthest8]

How much do you want the job? If you're not that fussed, and it's not been stated in the job description or contract or during interviews that you might need to work extra hours, then query why this is necessary.

In practice it's standard and if you're regularly being asked to do unfair hours you deal with that some other way.

This sounds like good advice. Ta.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

some employers do include it as standard - in some cases because they think that the rule means nobody can ever work more than 48 hours in one week unless they opt out, which is not what it says (the 17 week average)

depending on how much you want / need the job, you could put an opt-out in straight away, although you might end up finding that you haven't passed the probation period if you do.

with most jobs, there are going to be occasional situations where people will need to work a bit more than their contracted hours. it's probably worth asking the question about how it works at this place. some employers have a formal or informal flexitime / time off in lieu policy, some have overtime pay as part of the terms and conditions - and may depend what sort of level you're at - there may be more of an expectation that managers do extra hours on odd occasions (or most of the time) without any extra pay, shop floor level workers may have formalised overtime.

some places it's pretty much expected that you just do extra hours when needed as part of the job / package - which means you need to take that in to account when thinking about the pay on offer, and without knowing how often it happens, it can be hard to tell when you're deciding whether to accept or not.

you say this is a very small business - they tend to be less formal about things. and in practical terms, the smaller the business, the more chance of there being occasional peaks of work that can't be spread out among many people. they can also suffer from the owner expecting everyone to be just as dedicated to the business as they are and devote their life to it.

and some employers just take the piss.

 

[Epona]

Neither I nor N have ever been offered a work contract where it was not an integral part of the contract to opt out of the Working Time Regulations. It made sense for N a bit when he was a nurse and had odd shifts and had to be on an on call rota, but he had to opt out for his current job and just in case we need a reminder, making doughnuts is not the 5th emergency service.

(The ability to opt out has been abused by employers since it was put into place - I'd suggest taking the job if you want it, and if they are too demanding then look for something else, but most job contracts in the UK have this in them)

 

[MickiQ]

making doughnuts is not the 5th emergency service.

Speak for yourself

 

[Epona]

Speak for yourself

I'm speaking for my husband who works NIGHT SHIFTS so that fuckers who fancy doughnuts can get them fresh in the morning.
Sorry, I'm failing to find the humour in your post, given that N has been working nights for over 3 years to make sure doughnuts are on the shelves when shops open - it's not necessary, it's an element of capitalism that disrupts the lives of workers and their families, it's exploitation pure and simple.
Sorry for the lack of humour in this post also! It's devastating to our lives, and he's on barely more than minimum wage.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Sorry, I'm failing to find the humour in your post, given that N has been working nights for over 3 years to make sure doughnuts are on the shelves when shops open - it's not necessary, it's an element of capitalism that disrupts the lives of workers and their families, it's exploitation pure and simple.

It's the 'humour' of someone who has never done a day's honest graft and so takes the work of others as a given.

Coincidentally MickiQ won't tell us what he does for a living, only that he gets paid very well for doing it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Why were you willing to do unpaid overtime?

It's rarely presented to workers as a choice, would you like to do this extra work you won't get paid for? It's an expectation, just as it's an expectation that staff won't ask for extra money or TOIL.

Education runs entirely on unpaid overtime. My contracted hours are 6.5 per day, which is my contact hours plus three hours a week. That leaves about eight minutes per lesson for planning, resourcing and marking. And zero time for admin, contact with parents, safeguarding and numerous other non-optional aspects of my job.

 

[mojo pixy]

I've just signed a new job contract with a clause like this, then immediately ticked a box to say I don't agree to work more than 48 hours (it's a 37.5 hour contract so in theory they could ask me for a whole extra day anyway and only just hit 48 hours). My excuse is that I'm a single parent but if I weren't I'd have found some other explanation.

Don't stress it, as everyone else says this has been normal for years. Take the job if you want it, terminate your opt out then just do a good job in your contracted hours.

 

[Epona]

One of the arguments against the Working Time Regulations was that is would prevent people from doing overtime and making extra money - but people should not have to work over 40 hours a week to have enough income to live on.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

It's basically worthless. This is first job I've done where there was no expectation I'd sign it.

Its intresting to see people mentioning overtime rates. Are these still a thing for many people? I've always been paid at whatever my hourly rate is and no extra.

 

[MickiQ]

I'm speaking for my husband who works NIGHT SHIFTS so that fuckers who fancy doughnuts can get them fresh in the morning.
Sorry, I'm failing to find the humour in your post, given that N has been working nights for over 3 years to make sure doughnuts are on the shelves when shops open - it's not necessary, it's an element of capitalism that disrupts the lives of workers and their families, it's exploitation pure and simple.
Sorry for the lack of humour in this post also! It's devastating to our lives, and he's on barely more than minimum wage.

Apologies if you think my joke was a bit insensitive but surely doughnuts do need making in the wee small hours? It would be a bit pointless if they didn't show up until about three in the afternoon. Surely your argument should be he is criminally underpaid for such a socially important role rather than the role is unnecessary.

 

[Spymaster]

Why were you willing to do unpaid overtime?

Overtime just isn't a thing for a lot of people. All of our contractors are on day rates rather than hourly, and given they all work remotely there's no way to know how many hours, or even days, they actually work. Sometimes they might do 3 hours, others they might work through the night. If someone's unhappy with the volume or quality of the work, the contract gets terminated.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Overtime just isn't a thing for a lot of people. All of our contractors are on day rates rather than hourly, and given they all work remotely there's no way to know how many hours, or even days, they actually work. Sometimes they might do 3 hours, others they might work through the night. If someone's unhappy with the volume or quality of the work, the contract gets terminated.

Contracting is slightly different though. I fully expect at some point shit will hit fan and I'll have to work through the night or weekend, but when that happens I expect to be paid for it.

If you want to pay me a very high day rate to get on with a project, I'll pull those hours to make sure I keep such a lucrative contract.

 

[Spymaster]

Contracting is slightly different though. I fully expect at some point shit will hit fan and I'll have to work through the night or weekend, but when that happens I expect to be paid for it.

If you want to pay me a very high day rate to get on with a project, I'll pull those hours to make sure I keep such a lucrative contract.

For sure. There's also an element of "if the work gets done, who cares?" from both sides.

I see all of our invoices and unless a contractor is taking a long holiday, or there are bank holidays in the month, they rarely invoice for less than 20 days. Anyone would think that software devs never get sick, have hangovers, or family emergencies

 

[moomoo]

One of the arguments against the Working Time Regulations was that is would prevent people from doing overtime and making extra money - but people should not have to work over 40 hours a week to have enough income to live on.

I’ve opted out. I’m contracted to 26 hours a week at pretty much minimum wage so obviously have to do a fair bit of overtime to make my money up.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I’ve opted out. I’m contracted to 26 hours a week at pretty much minimum wage so obviously have to do a fair bit of overtime to make my money up.

Does 26 hours mean they can avoid giving you certain benefits?

 

[StoneRoad]

This attempt at evading the working hours regulation is very, very common. To the point the regs are almost pointless. I pay my team their standard rate for extra hours, and sometimes there's some "profit" to be shared as a bonus, but a lot of my projects are, effectively, fixed price so if time is wasted having to redo shoddy work then there's no bonus to share out !

Something else that is very common is the "any other task as required" clause, that's also a potential nightmare but is usually included in attempts to overrule the jobsworths "not in my job description" ...

e2a - corrected the "any other task " as I messed the wording up slightly

 

[moomoo]

Does 26 hours mean they can avoid giving you certain benefits?

What do you mean?

 

[StoneRoad]

Does 26 hours mean they can avoid giving you certain benefits?

Are you thinking about holidays ?
as that was my immediate reaction ...