Citizens Assembly

[Gramsci]

A few info links from the whats app group

Love Lambeth

Lambeth Council has published ambitious plans in response to the climate crisis, including the establishment of a Citizens Assembly to ensure borough-wide commitment.

love.lambeth.gov.uk

Love Lambeth

Lambeth Council has published ambitious plans in response to the climate crisis, including the establishment of a Citizens Assembly to ensure borough-wide commitment.

love.lambeth.gov.uk

 

[Gramsci]

Been told the deputation to full Council meeting tomorrow has been allowed. That is from the Beyond Politics group. Tomorrow evening it will be in public domain.

Will try to post it up as it is a clear short piece on their views.

The full Council can be watched online.

Join conversation

bit.ly

On Teams 7pm Wednesday

 

[CH1]

I managed to find Muammar Gaddafi's Green Book the other day online.
The great leader says:

Popular Conferences are the only means to achieve popular
democracy. Any system of government contrary to this method,
the method of Popular Conferences, is undemocratic. All the
prevailing systems of government in the world today will remain
undemocratic, unless they adopt this method. Popular
Conferences are the end of the journey of the masses in quest
of democracy.

It's all in here page - with a diagram http://openanthropology.org/libya/gaddafi-green-book.pdf

Seems to me Citizen's Assemblies are as Gaddafi-style fad open to absue. Oops I can feel my Green Party card being shredded right now.
Personally I prefer the old idea of a council with open committees - councillors voted voted for preferably by thirds -one councillor up every year.

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

Seems to me Citizen's Assemblies are as Gaddafi-style fad open to absue.

Totally agree.

What happened at the council meeting Gramsci ?

 

[Gramsci]

Totally agree.

What happened at the council meeting Gramsci ?

I got back to late to follow it. I think CH1 watched it.

 

[CH1]

Torpid Scorpion Gramsci I did watch some of the council meeting.
But I was only dipping in.
I heard bits of the environmental delegation, and listened to parts of the meeting itself.
But there is no way I could listen to Councillor Tim Briggs without having a pulmonary event, so anything with him in I put it straight off.
Likewise Cllr Ed Davie. He is just so, combative.

I once heard Davie make a good combative speech - referring to Sean Rigg's death in police custody as one of too many such events. This was at a de facto Citizen's Assembly convened by Stephen Greenhalgh, Mayor Boris's Deputy Mayor for Policing - in the Fridge as I think it still was about ten years back. The meeting was to secure community approval to shut the Police Consultative Group. The community did not approve - so they shut it anyway. No formal vote was taken BTW.

Apart from that every speech I've heard from Ed Davie has attacked the public, council tenants and fellow councillors who are not Right Wing Labour for being ungrateful.

To be fair as I didn't give the meeting my full undivided attention, I cannot do other than give a general impression as here Brixton news, rumours and general chat

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

Thanks CH1. so many bullshit assemblies, groups, ‘projects’ and so little basic accountability. Sigh.

 

[sparkybird]

Gosh I'm not sure where the CA WhatsApp group is heading. I'm just observing at the moment but am genuinely interested in how we can work together to tackle climate change, but there seems to be hardly any reference to addressing it at all. Lots of talk of fighting for peoples rights, but I'm not clear what exactly these rights are.
I'm not feeling inclined to stay in the group

 

[BusLanes]

Is this a public WhatsApp chat or the steering group chat?

 

[sparkybird]

It's a public WhatsApp. But seems to have been a bit derailed. Not sure what's happened to the moderator

 

[snowy_again]

One Lambeth currently complaining that there’s isn’t a representative from a motorist organisation in the steering group.

 

[thebackrow]

One Lambeth currently complaining that there’s isn’t a representative from a motorist organisation in the steering group.

Would this be the same OneLambeth that absolutely, definitely, isn't pro motoring but wants clean air and safe roads for everyone?

 

[Gramsci]

One Lambeth currently complaining that there’s isn’t a representative from a motorist organisation in the steering group.

The Brighton CA steering group had rep from RAC. That CA was focusing on transport.

It would have been idea to do the same for the Lambeth one.

 

[Gramsci]

The Whats App group has been basically taken over by anti LTN people over last few days

Its starting to get unpleasant with attacks on anyone who is " Green". Started before that with general criticisms of this Labour Council now anyone / group who is a bit Green is the target.

Most unpleasant. I'm keeping off it from now on.

I did try to stick up for XR as I don't agree they are all middle class newcomers to Lambeth. I know someone in Lambeth XR and they definitely aren't.

 

[Gramsci]

Here is the Beyond Politics address to last Full Council meeting. Ok to post up as its in public domain now.

What they are saying is fair enough.

Council should do more to communicate with people. Beyond Politics group offer to help with this.

 

[editor]

Update: Lambeth citizens’ assembly on climate change wants your input

 

[Gramsci]

Update: Lambeth citizens’ assembly on climate change wants your input

Well Transition Town want your input to be more precise.

I've done some reading around Citizens Assemblies and direct democracy.

The problem with citizens’ assemblies

As a citizens' assembly to deal with climate change is announced, Elaine Graham-Leigh looks at the idea’s limitations The recent move by various House of Commons select committees to call a citizens’ assembly on climate change confirms that the citizens’ assembly is having a moment.

www.counterfire.org

CAs and "sortition" are often justified as being going back to origins of democracy in Greece. This article puts forward that this direct democracy was manipulated. Its not simple direct democracy is better than representative democracy.

I left the Whats App group that started this thread as it became dominated by arguments about LTN.

What it showed is that people realise that who shapes the agenda/topics/speakers for the CA is crucial in influencing what kind of answers it comes up with.

Both anti LTN and green groups are pushing to influence what the CA decides on.

This Transition Town project is intending to do this.

The website makes clear where they want to go. A Lambeth without cars.

I find this political jockeying to influence agenda for a CA undermines idea of direct democracy.

Kind of find it ironic that supporters like green groups Transition Town show that in actual fact they know what they want to happen.

Like typical Lambeth Council consultations they have outcomes from a CA that they want to see. So want it set up to produce the "right" answers.

BTW the membership of CA has already been chosen. As one of the comments below article states.

 

[Gramsci]

More useful I think would be a discussion of direct vs representative democracy. The different models that can be used.

Madrid under the left started to devolve budgets to local areas/ use digital democracy. For example a person could put forward a suggestion for the city. If enough people supported it it could go to a referendum.

Madrid as a democracy lab

An exuberant ecosystem of citizen practices and self-managed spaces has turned Madrid into an international reference of the urban commons. Español Português

www.opendemocracy.net

Its what the article calls dis intermediation. Starting to remove the distance between elected representatives and the citizens. Using Internet platforms.

There is a difference between this form of direct democracy and and CAs/sortition.

Some advocates of CA/ sortition are critical of the Madrid model.

For them CAs chosen through lot who then go through intensive educational process to come out with policy ideas is better.

The Madrid model of direct democracy comes from Occupy movement (Indignados in Spain). Its about increasing the input of mass of people in most effective and open way possible. Crucially the ideas for change come from below and are put to referendums.

The CA /sortition model is about selecting small group who reflect local demographics to look at policy issues.

They then attend talks by "experts" before choosing policy options.

 

[lazythursday]

Citizens assemblies are great in theory but are not proving to be so transformative in practice. Plenty have now happened in the UK, and councils tick their boxes and proceed to ignore most of the carefully deliberated upon recommendations. Eg Leeds council goes ahead and votes to expand Leeds Bradford Airport.

 

[sparkybird]

I stuck with it but the WhatsApp group is now dominated by anti LTN posters or conspiracy loons. Latest post links to Onelambeth fundraiser to remove LTNs. This is about as far away from the purpose of the group as it can get.
I think the world is doomed. People can't see that making small changes locally can help tackle climate change. Oh no, it's up to China to sort itself out first. Then I might walk to the shops instead of driving.

 

[bmd]

Citizens assemblies are great in theory but are not proving to be so transformative in practice. Plenty have now happened in the UK, and councils tick their boxes and proceed to ignore most of the carefully deliberated upon recommendations. Eg Leeds council goes ahead and votes to expand Leeds Bradford Airport.

Do they have the power to stop things like that then?

 

[Gramsci]

I stuck with it but the WhatsApp group is now dominated by anti LTN posters or conspiracy loons. Latest post links to Onelambeth fundraiser to remove LTNs. This is about as far away from the purpose of the group as it can get.
I think the world is doomed. People can't see that making small changes locally can help tackle climate change. Oh no, it's up to China to sort itself out first. Then I might walk to the shops instead of driving.

So it hasn't improved since I left.

It is very unfortunate. The people who started the Whats App group did so with the best intentions.

When I decided to leave I was getting fed up with people posting up numerous YouTube videos etc.

 

[lazythursday]

Do they have the power to stop things like that then?

No, they make recommendations, which should carry a great deal of weight, but the reality appears to be that they don't. They should give local authorities / government some political cover for potentially unpopular / controversial decisions, but I'm not so sure those who commission them understand that or really value the exercise.

 

[sparkybird]

So it hasn't improved since I left.

It is very unfortunate. The people who started the Whats App group did so with the best intentions.

When I decided to leave I was getting fed up with people posting up numerous YouTube videos etc.

I think it's got worse. Absolutely nothing at all posted about tackling climate change.