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Citizens Assembly

The WhatsApp group was started by XR related group Beyond Politics. Apparently Hallam leading guru at start of XR is not involved in any of the local Beyond Politics groups. It's not a Beyond Politics whats app group though.

Beyond Politics are concerned about public not knowing enough about the Council instigated Citizen Assembly.

Hence the Whats App group.

Beyond Politics have also put in submission to next full Council meeting on the 20th January.

I've asked if I can share it publicly.

Here is what I think is fair enough to post up.

There is a steering group for the Citizens Assembly. Cllrs from all parties, NHS , South bank university, environment group rep, Citizens UK, TFL.

Which is meeting on 21st January.
 
Lot of people complaining about LTNs.

The way that the Council have implemented LTNs in the pandemic with no consutation is a disaster for furthering the Green agenda in Lambeth.

People are now understandably suspicious of Council.

I also think Green groups are gong to have to be careful not to be seen to close to this Council.
 
I think the Whats App group is genuine attempt to let publc be better informed about Citizen Assembly.

Also the environmetalists who started it want the Council to go further in involving the public.
 
Rushy said:
Who is saying that and how so?
Click to expand...

Its my observation from reading the Whats App group.

Council poor implementation of LTNs has managed to galvanise an opposition.

I'm starting to wonder if this is going to effect support for Labour.
 
Rushy said:
Who is saying that and how so?
Click to expand...

The green environmentalists who started the group naively imo believe People's Assembly is a form of direct democracy that is beyond politics. That is will go over the heads of politicians.

Some from anti LTN are keen on this idea as well. As its the politicians who have imposed LTNs on them.
 
Gramsci said:
Its my observation from reading the Whats App group.

Council poor implementation of LTNs has managed to galvanise an opposition.

I'm starting to wonder if this is going to effect support for Labour.
Click to expand...
There’s a small but very vocal group of anti-LTN people all over various local whatsapp groups and forums etc, taking every opportunity to moan about the LTNs.

I can’t see there’s enough of them to seriously threaten labour locally.
 
I thought the idea of Citizens Assemblies was that they were independently recruited to be representative of the population
www.brighton-hove.gov.uk

Brighton & Hove climate assembly

We brought together a group of people to learn about climate issues and make recommendations about how things should change.
www.brighton-hove.gov.uk www.brighton-hove.gov.uk

Brighton seems to have got on with this a bit quicker than Lambeth and has had the first meeting of their climate assembly focussing on transport,.

Despite similar outrage about COVID transport schemes as everywhere else the first climate assembly came up with the following -

Ranked in order of importance, the 10 recommendations from the climate assembly are:
  1. A car-free city centre
  2. The public transport system should be affordable/accessible
  3. Creation of healthier low traffic/pedestrianised communities
  4. The council should actively consult and engage with the community
  5. Introduce mobility hubs - a mobility hub is a recognisable place which provides and connects up different types of travel, like cycle hire, station, parking and transport information
  6. Cyclists should be prioritised over cars through well-designed dedicated cycling networks that are safe and practical for day-to-day use as well as leisure
  7. Introduce a park and ride to minimise car use in the city
  8. Make public transport a more convenient alternative to driving a car
  9. Messaging should focus on what people gain rather than lose and educate/expand citizens' knowledge
  10. There should be a focus on incentives rather than sanctions as interventions
 
Brixton Hatter said:
There’s a small but very vocal group of anti-LTN people all over various local whatsapp groups and forums etc, taking every opportunity to moan about the LTNs.

I can’t see there’s enough of them to seriously threaten labour locally.
Click to expand...
I previously quoted some stat I'd seen somewhere that 50% of Twitter traffic about LTNs comes from just twenty accounts (both for and against).
 
Brixton Hatter said:
There’s a small but very vocal group of anti-LTN people all over various local whatsapp groups and forums etc, taking every opportunity to moan about the LTNs.

I can’t see there’s enough of them to seriously threaten labour locally.
Click to expand...


I dont think it is that small.

But I don't think in long run it will affect Labour vote.

Sadly Labour in Lambeth work on basis people don't have anywhere else to go. Which is New Labour tactic.

Im still wondering whether to vote Labour at next election ( Mayor). Nothing against Khan but way the Labour party nationally and locally is going I dont want to endorse their kind of politics.

I can sympathise with those who are pissed off with Lambeths poor implementation of LTNs that they might embrace the idea of direct democracy Peoples Assembly style. Raises interesting question of how much direct democracy is really wanted. The anti politics of XR can also appeal to those who oppose green measure like LTN. Behind both is that its the political class that is the problem. If only ordinary non political people where in the driving seat all would be well.
 
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There are various problems with the concept of People's Assemblies.

In Lambeth the New Labour Council decided that XR are a group to deal with.

Its XR who put forward idea of Peoples Assemblies. So bit of background.

The original idea from Hallam and co was that elected politcians are incapable of dealing wth a climate emergency. Time was short so Non Violent Civil Disobedience was the way forward. This was based on studies of effectiveness of NVDA.

If a large enough minority of people of a country could be persuaded to take NVDA government would be brought to a standstill.

Negotiation would take place to get that government to pass a binding law to go to zero carbon in a short time scale.

As poliiticians have shown themselves not up to dealing wiith climate emergency a Citizens Assembly would be given the task of deciding how to get to zero carbon.

The political class are in this view in hock to being swayed by voters and pressure from big business.

A Peoples Assembly would be drawn by random selection of electoral roll. They would be given different choices about how to get to zero carbon. The choices they make would be binding on the government.

So it is a specific view of a Peoples Assembly with a specific aim.
 
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Councils are obliged to consult residents.

The traditional ways to do this are:

Lambeth Consultation page on its website. Council puts up a paper and asks individuals or groups to comment. This is open to all with a time limit. Ive taken part in these on planning guidelines.

Second way is for Council to hire a third party ( who specialise in consultation) to consult public on a specific issue. Ive taken part in several of these- Brixton SPD. Brixton Masterplan and LJ masterplan. These aare usually done by street stalls and public meetings. More face to face than first one. Way they are done is that they are open to all who want to attend.

Peoples Assemblies on Climate change Council style is new. Looking at what Oxford Council did imo its not reallly a Peoples Assembly its a different way of consulting people. People are chosen or put themselves forward as individuals. Im still not clear how this is done. Its a concern for the environmentalists who started the whats app. How a small group representative of Lambeth as a whole is chosen. This is different from the other two ways to consult. You cannot just turn up.

The Oxford one took place over two weekends. Council hired speakers. Then different themes were discussed. ( Housing , Transport etc). The findings were not binding. They were advisory. Council would respond to them.

So the Peoples Assembly Council style is more like a glorified form of consultation.

Im not clear why its in any way better then the traditional ones.

I think the Whats App environmentalists want something more than this. They want bottom up decision making on moving Lambeth to green borough embedded in the Council . Including its bureaucracy. So they want something more than a one off Consultation/ Assembly.
 
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Those of us who have experience of Lambeth and consultation know that Lambeth are experts at deciding first and trying to make consultation fit what they want to do.

Happened over the Brixton Rec and SPD/ LJ Gordon Grove Advenure Playground and the LJ masterplan.

The ongoing sorry saga of Cressingham Gardens is another one.

Not forgetting the "Culture2020" consultation on parks/ libraries and gyms. Where the top Cllr decided with GLL to do a Gym / Libary deal. An idea not part of the consultation and decided behind closed doors.

All of the above caused a great deal of resentment. Lambeth failed on the Rec and Grove APG. Got what they wanted on Gym / Library.

So the Council can be defeated sometimes. Despite the best efforts of senior officers and senior Cllrs.

Years of this have bred mistrust of the Council.

I do feel given Lambeth Track record they will try to set up a Peoples Assembly on climate change to make sure it gives them the results they want.

Looking at the make up of the group to decide how its to be done gives me concern that this is what will happen.
 
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Gramsci said:
So the Peoples Assembly Council style is more like a glorified form of consultation.
Im not clear why its in any way better then the traditional ones.
Click to expand...

I believe the theory is that
  • you get a truly representative sample of people (who are chosen by an independent body to ensure age/gender/ethnicity and other demographics are appropriately* represented). So unlike a traditional consultation it should not be swayed by a lobby group 'loading' the attendees or responses or be able to be swayed by advertising spend
  • because the panel is independently chosen the council cant' load it. but neither can XR.
  • The assembly is then addressed by a series of 'expert witnesses' to ensure they have, and understand, the relevant information and data that is relevant to the decision they are being asked to make.

The theory sounds good - it should be well informed rather than relying on hearsay and emotional responses. It shouldn't be swayed by wealthy lobbyists or advertising and it should mean that groups who don't traditionally respond to consultations are considered (eg under 18's, more transient populations, etc) and not dominated just by those who shout the loudest.

*what is actually representative? someone for every group? weighted by local population? national population? Presumably there is a standard.
 
There’s quite a long wiki article on Citizen’s Assemblies which covers some of that selection / bias management and the complications of consensus decision making
 
I joined the WhatsApp group. I think should be made clearer that it's a Citizens Assembly about Climate Change only. Already some 'discussions' about Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. There's a danger I guess that a single issue (like traffic) could take over, which is a shame. I had forgotten I'd commented on the original Commonplace consultation.
 
thebackrow said:
I believe the theory is that
  • you get a truly representative sample of people (who are chosen by an independent body to ensure age/gender/ethnicity and other demographics are appropriately* represented). So unlike a traditional consultation it should not be swayed by a lobby group 'loading' the attendees or responses or be able to be swayed by advertising spend
  • because the panel is independently chosen the council cant' load it. but neither can XR.
  • The assembly is then addressed by a series of 'expert witnesses' to ensure they have, and understand, the relevant information and data that is relevant to the decision they are being asked to make.

The theory sounds good - it should be well informed rather than relying on hearsay and emotional responses. It shouldn't be swayed by wealthy lobbyists or advertising and it should mean that groups who don't traditionally respond to consultations are considered (eg under 18's, more transient populations, etc) and not dominated just by those who shout the loudest.

*what is actually representative? someone for every group? weighted by local population? national population? Presumably there is a standard.
Click to expand...

Having taken part in consultations in Lambeth I havent seen evidence of them being swayed by lobby groups or being swayed by advetising spend.

What I have seen is local people give up free time to attend and comment. Or comment online. Which is open to all.

There is nothing wrong with lobby groups commenting in consultations as long as they make it clear they are. For example Brixton Society put in comments on plannning consultations.

I have seen the Council ask loaded questions and try to nudge people into making certain opioions in consultations.
 
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sparkybird said:
I joined the WhatsApp group. I think should be made clearer that it's a Citizens Assembly about Climate Change only. Already some 'discussions' about Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. There's a danger I guess that a single issue (like traffic) could take over, which is a shame. I had forgotten I'd commented on the original Commonplace consultation.
Click to expand...

Yes its dominating the Whats App.

This is imo the Councils fault for bringing in LTNs without ( as Council say) the usual Consultation prior to implementation.

Now people are being told they are going to get a "Citizena Assembly". The Council using this kind of language is going to understandably wind people up.

I really wish the Council would drop the XR language and call it something else.

Its a wind up as it makes people think its some kind of direct democracy. Yet over LTNs the Council is telling them to just deal with it and shut up.

Its a novel form of consultation on a specific issue not really an Assembly of the People.

As people hear the phrase Citizens Assembly they think they will be able to have a real say. When they won't in practise. As far as I can see its advisory.

I do think LTN should be on the agenda of it under transport.
 
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