Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022

[AnnO'Neemus]

Apparently it was the judge who ruled out giving the manslaughter option to the jury, which I think was shame, as I posted yesterday, I doubt the jury would have even convicted him on that charge.

The jury heard 3 weeks of evidence, yet took just 3 hours to return their verdict, sadly some in the urban bubble of being ACAB and wannabe lawyers, that haven't heard the evidence and know fuck all about the law, will continue to think they know better than the jury.

No, I'm just saying as a general principle that the death penalty was abolished in the UK decades ago and even then those sentences were handed down at the end of the judicial process.

Extrajudicial killings are unacceptable. This idea that someone had it coming and deserved to die because they were a gangster and had been involved in gun violence themself, they were a 'scumbag' and throw some domestic violence* into the mix too well that's saying that they deserved the death penalty, no judge, no jury, do not go straight to jail, do not collect £200, just collect a bullet in the head.

All these people banging on about law and order and effectively arguing 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes' you can't have it both ways.

You're arguing that gangsters should be held accountable and reined in by officers of the law... all well and good... but then you're effectively arguing that those same officers of the law are above the law, they can carry out extrajudicial killings (mostly of black guys, by a police force that is widely acknowledged, even by itself to have problems with institutional racism), in a country that abolished the death penalty decades ago.

Asking for more protection for cops in the UK risks making that kind of behaviour policy. Shoot first. Ask questions later.

We're not living in the Philippines under the Duterte regime where cops were taking out drug gangsters with impunity.

 

[edcraw]

Hadn't realised the officer refused to be interviewed by the IOPC and instead gave an inaccurate statement. Always seems to be the case that the police refuse scrutiny & to tell the truth after shootings - also explains a bit why the case went to court.

The Guardian view on police accountability: ministers ought to act on evidence | Editorial

Editorial: A murder trial ends with an unresolved question: can officers maintain public trust and operate effectively while being held accountable?

www.theguardian.com

 

[Spymaster]

Extrajudicial killings are unacceptable. This idea that someone had it coming and deserved to die because they were a gangster and had been involved in gun violence themself, they were a 'scumbag' and throw some domestic violence* into the mix too well that's saying that they deserved the death penalty, no judge, no jury, do not go straight to jail, do not collect £200, just collect a bullet in the head.

All these people banging on about law and order and effectively arguing 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes' you can't have it both ways.

You're arguing that gangsters should be held accountable and reined in by officers of the law... all well and good... but then you're effectively arguing that those same officers of the law are above the law, they can carry out extrajudicial killings (mostly of black guys, by a police force that is widely acknowledged, even by itself to have problems with institutional racism), in a country that abolished the death penalty decades ago.

Are you reading a different thread to everyone else, Ann?

 

[cupid_stunt]

No, I'm just saying as a general principle that the death penalty was abolished in the UK decades ago and even then those sentences were handed down at the end of the judicial process.

Extrajudicial killings are unacceptable.

Totally agree.

This idea that someone had it coming and deserved to die because they were a gangster and had been involved in gun violence themself, they were a 'scumbag' and throw some domestic violence* into the mix too well that's saying that they deserved the death penalty, no judge, no jury, do not go straight to jail, do not collect £200, just collect a bullet in the head.

I haven't done that, nor do I think anyone else has on this thread, this is just weird!

All these people banging on about law and order and effectively arguing 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes' you can't have it both ways.

Who has done that?

You're arguing that gangsters should be held accountable and reined in by officers of the law... all well and good... but then you're effectively arguing that those same officers of the law are above the law, they can carry out extrajudicial killings (mostly of black guys, by a police force that is widely acknowledged, even by itself to have problems with institutional racism), in a country that abolished the death penalty decades ago.

No I am not, this is such bollocks, and frankly insulting, give your head a wobble, and get a fucking grip!

 

[Pickman's model]

No I am not, this is such bollocks, and frankly insulting, give your head a wobble, and get a fucking grip!

You're still silent on how you'd exit a car with your hands up, as you proposed ck should have done

 

[cupid_stunt]

You're still silent on how you'd exit a car with your hands up

Oh, do shut up, you nitpicking, pedantic, twat of a little man, I am not going to play your silly games.

 

[pbsmooth]

And still they come

 

[planetgeli]

The last few pages on here have been some of the most depressing I've ever read on Urban.

 

[Derek S-H]

Hadn't realised the office refused to be interviewed by the IOPC and instead gave an inaccurate statement. Always seems to be the case that the police refuse scrutiny & to tell the truth after shootings and also explains why the case went to court.

The Guardian view on police accountability: ministers ought to act on evidence | Editorial

Editorial: A murder trial ends with an unresolved question: can officers maintain public trust and operate effectively while being held accountable?

www.theguardian.com

This is exactly what has happened on this Thread:

"The case underscores how narratives, not just facts, shape perceptions of justice. Headlines about a “hero cop” and a gangster “hitman” do not fully represent the case, only an attempt to frame the verdict and put pressure on the Home Office to make the police even less accountable than they are now. This, after a string of misconduct cases has eroded public trust in policing."

No one was shot in this case, thankfully:

Bianca Williams: Two Met officers sacked over athlete search gross misconduct

Athletes Bianca Williams and Ricardo Dos Santos say they were racially profiled by officers.

www.bbc.co.uk

However, it did call into question the perceptions and motivations of the officers involved. I appreciate this does not apply to the CK case, but it appears to be the framework that the police operate within whilst dealing with Black males in stop and search operations.

The suspect is dead and the officer responsible has been cleared in a court of law. However, the uneasy climate around stop and search will continue as long as police seemingly target and treat ethnic minorities differently, and I think this is of more significance moving forward and something that really ought to be addressed instead of giving the police even more powers to avoid scrutiny.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh, do shut up, you nitpicking, pedantic, twat of a little man, I am not going to play your silly games.

So now you've worked put it's impossible, what would you have done in ck's position?

 

[Numbers]

Exactly, not helped by the fact he was coked up.

I’m assuming you’ve seen the toxicology report?

 

[SLBDWELL]

Can you tase someone inside a car with windows closed? I'm wondering why they didn't shoot the tyres down...

No, I'm just saying as a general principle that the death penalty was abolished in the UK decades ago and even then those sentences were handed down at the end of the judicial process.

Extrajudicial killings are unacceptable. This idea that someone had it coming and deserved to die because they were a gangster and had been involved in gun violence themself, they were a 'scumbag' and throw some domestic violence* into the mix too well that's saying that they deserved the death penalty, no judge, no jury, do not go straight to jail, do not collect £200, just collect a bullet in the head.

All these people banging on about law and order and effectively arguing 'play stupid games, win stupid prizes' you can't have it both ways.

You're arguing that gangsters should be held accountable and reined in by officers of the law... all well and good... but then you're effectively arguing that those same officers of the law are above the law, they can carry out extrajudicial killings (mostly of black guys, by a police force that is widely acknowledged, even by itself to have problems with institutional racism), in a country that abolished the death penalty decades ago.

Asking for more protection for cops in the UK risks making that kind of behaviour policy. Shoot first. Ask questions later.

We're not living in the Philippines under the Duterte regime where cops were taking out drug gangsters with impunity.

it was the car the police were following they did not know who was driving it; According to a sky news report by Henry Vaughan the vehicle Kaba was driving was linked to a shooting in Bromley, southeast London, on 22 May 2022, in which two people were targeted with a shotgun. This was heard in legal argument not in front of the jury. The Audi was also used as one of two getaway vehicles the night before Kaba was killed after three masked men fired a shotgun twice at unknown targets outside a Brixton school , jurors were told. The trial was based on the facts and event that took place within a few seconds( the shooting). Quiet rightly the judge did not allow Mr Kaba past convictions etc to be known to the jury in case it prejudiced/influence the jury decision.

 

[SLBDWELL]

I've been on a Jury and you have to be absolutely sure of the verdict. This leads to guilty people walking free obviously but less prone to wrongful convictions.
The definition of Manslaughter is here and clearly wasn't an option for the CPS , (edit , perhaps i mean Judge?)
"Manslaughter is when a person unlawfully kills another human, but he/she did not intend to kill"

agree with you re the jury but as we can see some people did not get the justice they thought they would through the jury system- then they need to come forward with an alternative i am not certain that would give them the justice they want ( which to me is not clear otherthan to convict the officer regardless of what the evidence is).

 

[SLBDWELL]

au contraire. the british orchestration of death squads in the six counties is well attested. for example, https://www.statewatch.org/media/documents/analyses/no-221-perfidious-albion.pdf (statewatch document on collusion in the six counties)

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

 

[AverageJoe]

The cop stated that he was aiming for the body-mass, which is what they are trained to do. Shooting through the thick glass of the windscreen, at a moving vehicle would make it very hard to place the shot in an exact position.

I used to know an armed response copper.

"You don't shoot to injure, because they can still shoot back or detonate. You shoot to kill".

Not my friend any more.

 

[Spymaster]

I used to know an armed response copper.

"You don't shoot to injure, because they can still shoot back or detonate. You shoot to kill".

Not my friend any more.

Because of that?

 

[PTK]

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

The Military Reaction Force, an undercover British Army unit, shot Roman Catholics civilian in drive-by shootings in the early 1970s.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

your post shows your abject ignorance of the subject.

 

[PTK]

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

And the UVF, UFF, RHC?

 

[AverageJoe]

Because of that?

Nah. He divorced his missus and we lost touch.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

You do know that ni is part of the UK, right? That was one of the things the ira wanted to change.

 

[krtek a houby]

Well the Malcom Sutton index of deaths ( under the respected CAIN Web services) More than 3,500 people were killed in the conflict, 52% were civilians 32% were members of the British security forces, and 16% were members of paramilitary groups. Responsibility for deaths were divided between: republican paramilitaries 60%, loyalists 30%, and security forces 10% ( hardly death squads) . civilians casualties were caused by: loyalists 48%, republicans 39%, and the security forces 10%. Hardly deaths squads- the only death squads were IRA apart from the sectarian ethnically trying to cleanse the border region of protestants and Unionist men women and children . On 28 October 1989, IRA volunteers opened fire on the car of an RAF corporal who was killed. His six month-old daughter Nivruti. was killed by a single shot to the head. His wife Smita Islania suffered shock. Clearly operating a shoot to kill policy. In 1990, two Australian tourists were shot dead by the IRA in Roermond after being mistaken for British military personal- in 2010 the parents visited Stormont by Adams and McGuiness refuse to meet them (how ethical and courageous of them) . IRA was responsible for the largest terrorist murder of civilians on the UK and in Northern Ireland – Birmingham pubs , Belfast ( bloody Friday 1972) the list goes on. Its clear from the evidence who were operating death squads resulting in more civilian deaths in both Northern Ireland and the UK.

The death squads were British crown forces and loyalists.

The freedom fighters were defending the occupied 6 counties from the terrorists.

 

[girasol]

I think that people who are saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' aren't saying Chris Kaba deserved to die, more that his lifestyle put him in very dangerous situations and his choices led to his death. It was a very volatile, fast moving situation and these are the consequences. I don't think there's any glee or joy in his death. It's sad that people make these choices - either for greed, status, excitement, misguided sense of manhood, acceptance or ???. People like Chris Kaba make these horrible life choices and then bring down their families with them. His whole family has been destroyed by grief, stress, etc (edit: shame, I forgot the shame ). He made all the choices he made without a thought for the pain it would bring to the people who loved him. I've seen this too many fucking times.

This isn't the same as getting stopped in random stop&search and then brutalized by the police.

It reminds me or the daredevils who climb up on top of dangerous building for Instagram likes and internet fame. It's all fun and games until they fall off and then it's the people left behind who have to clean it up and their family & friends have to deal with the grief. It's selfish.

Just to add: Chris Kaba could have been killed by someone else too, not just the police. He could have been hit by a car while running away from something or other, he could have been stabbed by someone in his own circle over money or some petty crap. I'm saying all this because I do know what it's like when someone you love gets involved in this life, it's fucking awful, it's heartbreaking to watch and you live your life knowing that something horrible could happen at any point, when you least expect it - and hoping hard that it doesn't. So for me that's what 'live by the sword, die by the sword' was meant as...

 

[Spymaster]

I think that people who are saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' aren't saying Chris Kaba deserved to die, more that his lifestyle put him in very dangerous situations and his choices led to his death. It was a very volatile, fast moving situation and these are the consequences. I don't think there's any glee or joy in his death. It's sad that people make these choices - either for greed, status, excitement, misguided sense of manhood, acceptance or ???. People like Chris Kaba make these horrible life choices and then bring down their families with them. His whole family has been destroyed by grief, stress, etc. He made all the choices he made without a thought for the pain it would bring to the people who loved him. I've seen this too many fucking times.

This isn't the same as getting stopped in random stop&search and then brutalized by the police.

It reminds me or the daredevils who climb up on top of dangerous building for Instagram likes and internet fame. It's all fun and games until they fall off and then it's the people left behind who have to clean it up and their family & friends have to deal with the grief. It's selfish.

Just to add: Chris Kaba could have been killed by someone else too, not just the police. He could have been hit by a car while running away from something or other, he could have been stabbed by someone in his own circle over money or some petty crap. I'm saying all this because I do know what it's like when someone you love gets involved in this life, it's fucking awful, it's heartbreaking to watch and you live your life knowing that something horrible could happen at any point, when you least expect it - and hoping hard that it doesn't. So for me that's what 'live by the sword, die by the sword' was meant as...

Good post.

There's no glee or joy being shown at his death. It was a tragedy, though one brought about by his own decisions.

There are some though, who would only have been happy if that tragedy was compounded by Blake being wrongly convicted of murder.

 

[emanymton]

I think that people who are saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' aren't saying Chris Kaba deserved to die, more that his lifestyle put him in very dangerous situations and his choices led to his death. It was a very volatile, fast moving situation and these are the consequences. I don't think there's any glee or joy in his death. It's sad that people make these choices - either for greed, status, excitement, misguided sense of manhood, acceptance or ???. People like Chris Kaba make these horrible life choices and then bring down their families with them. His whole family has been destroyed by grief, stress, etc. He made all the choices he made without a thought for the pain it would bring to the people who loved him. I've seen this too many fucking times.

This isn't the same as getting stopped in random stop&search and then brutalized by the police.

It reminds me or the daredevils who climb up on top of dangerous building for Instagram likes and internet fame. It's all fun and games until they fall off and then it's the people left behind who have to clean it up and their family & friends have to deal with the grief. It's selfish.

Just to add: Chris Kaba could have been killed by someone else too, not just the police. He could have been hit by a car while running away from something or other, he could have been stabbed by someone in his own circle over money or some petty crap. I'm saying all this because I do know what it's like when someone you love gets involved in this life, it's fucking awful, it's heartbreaking to watch and you live your life knowing that something horrible could happen at any point, when you least expect it - and hoping hard that it doesn't. So for me that's what 'live by the sword, die by the sword' was meant as...

If I remember correctly from one of the articles about him he was stabbed in the stomach at one point, and yes could easily have died then.

 

[scalyboy]

I think that people who are saying 'live by the sword, die by the sword' aren't saying Chris Kaba deserved to die, more that his lifestyle put him in very dangerous situations and his choices led to his death. It was a very volatile, fast moving situation and these are the consequences. I don't think there's any glee or joy in his death…

Agree.

Having watched the bodycam video and reading of Chris Kaba’s previous, it’s changed my perspective of this case.

OK, Martyn Blake didn’t know the identity of the Audi driver but the presence of several cop cars and armed police (inc. himself) would’ve told him they weren’t doing a hard stop on a vicar or little old lady… it wasn’t unreasonable to think the driver might be armed, since it had been involved in a shooting six days previously.

“Very volatile, fast moving situation” is an accurate description and it’s easy to say from my sofa what people should have done - maybe if Kaba hadn’t attempted to get away by ramming the car but instead put his hands on his head… maybe instead of shooting, Blake or another cop had smashed the front right window (as appears to happen in the other hard stop CCTV video posted earlier) and stuck a gun to Chris Kaba’s head shouting “don’t fucking move” the situation may have had a better outcome. Or maybe not.

But people aren’t necessarily going to
act cool and rational in a situation like this; I reckon both Kaba and Blake were in adrenaline-overload panic mode and behaved accordingly. I’m sure I wouldn’t be calm and collected in such circumstances.

Police do get jittery; I’ve experienced it myself a long time ago (and albeit not with fatal circumstances) during a bust when they were perhaps ‘over-zealously aggressive’ - but in retrospect I could understand why: they were fearful of guns and needle-stick injuries.

I’m not happy that an evidently violent gangster has been shot dead by a cop - it’s not what we expect from our police, as the UK isn’t Duterte’s Philippines.

And as for my earlier query as to why the judge didn’t offer the jury a manslaughter alternative, this Graun article explains that the difference between manslaughter and murder is not - as I’d thought - just a question of the defendant’s intentions, but whether their actions were lawful. Evidently the jury did believe Blake had acted lawfully.

None of this has a good outcome.
A 24-year-old young man with his life ahead of him has been shot dead; his family doubly grieving as they believe justice was not done. Blake now has the fear of a £10k contract out on him. Relations between the police and the public, especially the Black community, already poor, are now further worsened.

Apologies for length.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Totally agree.



I haven't done that, nor do I think anyone else has on this thread, this is just weird!



Who has done that?



No I am not, this is such bollocks, and frankly insulting, give your head a wobble, and get a fucking grip!

Apologies.

You made generalisations about what urbanites were saying on this thread.

I replied in a similar vein, commenting about what I recalled had been said, references to him being scum or a scumbag (I forget which exact term was used), and comments that were along the lines of he was a gangsta, live by the sword, die by sword, if you live that kind of lifestyle you have it coming, kind of thing.

So apologies for having put words in your mouth. Although telling me to 'get a fucking grip' was unnecessarily rude, when simply pointing out that I'd mistakenly attributed to you what others were saying would've sufficed.

 

[likesfish]

Thing was when the "brave freedom fighters" stopped their heroic defence of the Irish People thr evil empire forces went home and stopped murderizing people funny that

 

[bellaozzydog]

DP.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Thing was when the "brave freedom fighters" stopped their heroic defence of the Irish People thr evil empire forces went home and stopped murderizing people funny that

I’ve fostered dogs with a more coherent take on Ireland’s recent history