Chris Kaba, 24, shot dead by police in Streatham, Mon 5th Sept 2022

[Spymaster]

Was clearly being used as a weapon though.

But without more context it's hard to compare incidents.

The driver of the silver car should count himself very lucky not to have been shot.

Impossible to know without context, though the poster of the video is clearly ignorantly implying that the driver being white, made the difference.

Great work by the police though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Follow their own training and guidelines.

If the warnings about not hitting people over the head with batons are anything to go by so much of their training and so many of their guidelines are more honoured in the breach than the observance

 

[Spymaster]

Firearms officers to get anonymity in shooting legal proceedings - Cooper

Firearms officers to get presumption of anonymity in trials over shootings in line of duty, home secretary says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thoroughly sensible.

Nobody accused of extremely serious crime should have their names made public before they're convicted, imo.

 

[edcraw]

The driver of the silver car should count himself very lucky not to have been shot.

Impossible to know without context, though the poster of the video is clearly ignorantly implying that the driver being white, made the difference.

Great work by the police though.

Not implying that but it is one of the obvious differences as you've spotted along with the very different actions of the firearms officers.

 

[Spymaster]

Not implying that but it is one of the obvious differences as you've spotted along with the very different actions of the firearms officers.

What are the others?

What are the circumstances of the stop that you've posted?

 

[emanymton]

The driver of the silver car should count himself very lucky not to have been shot.

I know it already been said but I struggle with the mentality, there is a buch of armed men surrounding my car, I know let's ram the car into them, I'm sure that will work out for me.

 

[edcraw]

What are the others?

What are the circumstances of the stop that you've posted?

I don't know hence the question.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Was clearly being used as a weapon though.

But without more context it's hard to compare incidents.

I think “context” is what the majority of posters on this thread are lacking.

I fucking hate coppers and all they represent..

However. Some fucker has to do this very specialist role.

They are screened heavily, they are trained and drilled to a performance level most people wouldn’t comprehend. The level of psychological stressors involved in firearms incidents would paralyse most normal people. The police train this paralysis out so they can better make these life or death decisions.

It’s a tightrope. No firearms copper would wish a “bad shoot” and the processes this involves on his worst enemy.

Each and every firearms operation is a complex dynamic situation working with live intelligence in uncontrolled environments with civilians at risk.

They can make mistakes it’s inevitable.

But the level of nonsense armchair firearms expert bollocks being spouted on here is eye watering

The police are institutionally racist but I’m fairly sure the colour of the guys skin wasn’t the determining factor in this shooting. That was down to the immediate behaviour of the guy who was shot.

Note on hard stops: Hard stops are performed in such a way as to paralyse the target with the overwhelming shock of the action. They look insane if you see one, that’s the way it is trained.

Eta ACAB

 

[Spymaster]

I know it already been said but I struggle with the mentality, there is a buch of armed men surrounding my car, I know let's ram the car into them, I'm sure that will work out for me.

Perhaps he thought he could smash through the blockade then trundle home with a takeaway.

I once had a far less serious but still scary moment being pulled over by the police in Atlanta. I saw the lights go on and pulled over. I didn't know at the time that standard procedure over there is to turn off the engine, open the window, and sit with your hands visible to the plod. I did what I'd do at home and got out of the car and things escalated very quickly. The copper who was already out of the car shouted very aggressively at me to "get back in the fucking car" with his hand on his gun, and the police car blinded me with a spotlight.

Guess what I did, very quickly?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I know it already been said but I struggle with the mentality, there is a buch of armed men surrounding my car, I know let's ram the car into them, I'm sure that will work out for me.

In the case of the guy who drank in the same club as the fella who works for me, coke was involved (as it was reported with Kaba too).

New details emerge over man shot dead by Surrey Police in Knaphill

The man has also been officially named

www.getsurrey.co.uk

The guy who works for me has known this guy's dad for years, says the dad's a bit of an arse and the son was always out of control, but he couldn't understand why he pointed his gun at armed officers who were pointing their guns at him. "Did he like the pub-dust, Ken?" - "Yes, he was always powdering his nose down the club..." - there you go.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

A gangster goes around shooting people will get shot.

Why is it a crime when a gangster shoots and kills someone, but it isn't a crime when a cop carries out an extrajudicial killing of an unarmed man whose identity he didn't know?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Why is it a crime when a gangster shoots and kills someone, but it isn't a crime when a cop carries out an extrajudicial killing of an unarmed man whose identity he didn't know?

Mens rea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

What? You ain't even from this country. You've got notning apart from ,'the cops. It doesn't help a mouse's dick.

All right, I'll say it then, and I'm from this country.

Agreed. The cops are the biggest gangsters around.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think “context” is what the majority of posters on this thread are lacking.

I fucking hate coppers and all they represent..

However. Some fucker has to do this very specialist role.

They are screened heavily, they are trained and drilled to a performance level most people wouldn’t comprehend. The level of psychological stressors involved in firearms incidents would paralyse most normal people. The police train this paralysis out so they can better make these life or death decisions.

It’s a tightrope. No firearms copper would wish a “bad shoot” and the processes this involves on his worst enemy.

Each and every firearms operation is a complex dynamic situation working with live intelligence in uncontrolled environments with civilians at risk.

They can make mistakes it’s inevitable.

But the level of nonsense armchair firearms expert bollocks being spouted on here is eye watering

The police are institutionally racist but I’m fairly sure the colour of the guys skin wasn’t the determining factor in this shooting. That was down to the immediate behaviour of the guy who was shot.

Note on hard stops: Hard stops are performed in such a way as to paralyse the target with the overwhelming shock of the action. They look insane if you see one, that’s the way it is trained.

Eta ACAB

Given Wayne couzens was a firearms officer your they're heavily screened seems founded on sand

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

some more back story. the guy was a complete scumbag. shootings, knives, drugs, a protection racket targeting women, domestic protection order from the mother of his child etc etc.

https://archive.is/nKS79

I don't know if it's escaped your notice, but irrespective of whether he was a complete scumbag, the UK abolished the death penalty for criminals decades ago.

Yet the police seem to get away with too many extrajudicial killings. Mark Duggan, Jean-Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson (although he was whacked with a baton for having the audacity to walk through an area where a protest was happening), etc, etc, etc.

 

[emanymton]

Why is it a crime when a gangster shoots and kills someone, but it isn't a crime when a cop carries out an extrajudicial killing of an unarmed man whose identity he didn't know?

Because rightly or wrongly the state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Never confuse the Law with morality.

 

[Pickman's model]

The BIB. The only part of your sentence that is true there is "was aggressively trying to evade arrest". Everything else is "likely" "had reason to believe" or plain wrong (the car was hemmed in and no longer going anywhere).

I've seen posters elsewhere on here describe it as a "2-ton TRUCK". I mean, why exaggerate even more than the police did in court if you are so sure of your case? Why not use the police's actual words in court which were;

"He was armed with a 2.5 ton Audi"

Yes, they actually said that.

Why don't some of you just admit you want all bad boys off your street, you don't care how it's done, and you're fine with summary execution?

Then fuck off to, I dunno, Russia or somewhere where your views would fit in nicely.

They'd have loved it in duterte's Philippines

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Because rightly or wrongly the state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Never confuse the Law with morality.

Not strictly true; you have the right to shoot someone dead if, a. your gun is held legitimately in the space where you used it, b. you have an honestly held belief that your life or the life of someone else was at serious risk if you didn't shoot.

Chances of you having a legitimately held gun in such a space are slim as hell though.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Because rightly or wrongly the state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Never confuse the Law with morality.

And never confuse the law with justice, they're two separate things entirely.

 

[Spymaster]

I don't know if it's escaped your notice, but irrespective of whether he was a complete scumbag, the UK abolished the death penalty for criminals decades ago.

Fortunately, the right (arguably the requirement) for cops to shoot possibly armed people who engage in extremely dangerous, violent conduct, after being given multiple opportunities to desist, still exists.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I watched, indeed took part in, the discharge of 13x3x5 (195) 9mm rounds discharged from Browning semi automatics at a plastic coffee cup fifteen feet away, without a single hit. (Half an hour earlier I had scored 50 out of 56 on my personal weapons test with an SMG.) Handguns are not easy to hit things with.

I've also fired an SMG on auto, you would need arms like a gorilla to keep it down.

Also if it was through the front windshield the angled glass would change the trajectory of the bullet probably quite unpredictable.

 

[Spymaster]

Yet the police seem to get away with too many extrajudicial killings. Mark Duggan, Jean-Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson (although he was whacked with a baton for having the audacity to walk through an area where a protest was happening), etc, etc, etc.

All the ACAB crew come out with this same line every time someone gets shot (you forgot Harry Stanley, btw), as if it's happening every day when in reality that's about it and your 'etc, etc, etc,' is spurious.

Anyone being wrongly shot is tragic and should be thoroughly investigated, but it's going to happen very occasionally. It's the price we pay for armed criminals existing, and police officers, however well trained, being human.

However, in the overwhelming majority of cases where the police raise their weapons, either nobody gets shot, or whoever does should be.

This case was absolutely not an extra-judicial execution or a mistake, and Kaba's death was completely his fault.

 

[emanymton]

Not strictly true; you have the right to shoot someone dead if, a. your gun is held legitimately in the space where you used it, b. you have an honestly held belief that your life or the life of someone else was at serious risk if you didn't shoot.

Chances of you having a legitimately held gun in such a space are slim as hell though.

Look, its just a pithy phrase.
Altogether the state does get to decide what it considers legitimately force for us to use.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I know it already been said but I struggle with the mentality, there is a buch of armed men surrounding my car, I know let's ram the car into them, I'm sure that will work out for me.

Exactly, not helped by the fact he was coked up.

 

[Rushy]

in the overwhelming majority of cases where the police raise their weapons, either nobody gets shot, or whoever does should be.

In the year ending 31 March 2024, there were 2 incidents in which police intentionally discharged firearms at persons, which represents 0.01% of total firearms operations (one in ten thousand). This is lower compared with all previous years since 2009 when comparable records began. The highest number since 2009 was 13 in the year ending 31 March 2019. This number was 10 in the year ending 31 March 2023.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

The jury heard all the evidence ; if people want to move away from the jury system then not only should they say so but what they would like to replace it with-

I've been on a Jury and you have to be absolutely sure of the verdict. This leads to guilty people walking free obviously but less prone to wrongful convictions.
The definition of Manslaughter is here and clearly wasn't an option for the CPS , (edit , perhaps i mean Judge?)
"Manslaughter is when a person unlawfully kills another human, but he/she did not intend to kill"

 

[Spymaster]

In the year ending 31 March 2024, there were 2 incidents in which police intentionally discharged firearms at persons, which represents 0.01% of total firearms operations (one in ten thousand). This is lower compared with all previous years since 2009 when comparable records began. The highest number since 2009 was 13 in the year ending 31 March 2019. This number was 10 in the year ending 31 March 2023.

Cheers. Thought I might have to go and find that.

So in the year, there were over SEVENTEEN THOUSAND firearms operations and shots were fired in only two of them.

Incidents of police firearms being discharged are vanishingly rare, let alone them being discharged incorrectly.

This whole ACAB nonsense suggesting that the Old Bill are gunslinging murderers is utter bollocks.

 

[Rushy]

Cheers. Thought I might have to go and find that.

So in the year, there were over SEVENTEEN THOUSAND firearms operations and shots were fired in only two of them.

Incidents of police firearms being discharged are vanishingly rare, let alone them being discharged incorrectly.

This whole ACAB nonsense suggesting that the Old Bill are gunslinging murderers is utter bollocks.

Looks like the majority could reach retirement without ever having heard a gun go off in the line of duty. No wonder they sounded so shocked when a shot was fired!

 

[trashpony]

Please see my reply to the others.

Yeah, as I said, this bit:

“The idea that the firearms officer had reason to believe he was likely to be dealing with a known criminal, possibly armed, who had shot someone twice is clearly not the case”

Is not ‘the facts’. It’s not poor phrasing, it’s a load of bollocks.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I've been on a Jury and you have to be absolutely sure of the verdict. This leads to guilty people walking free obviously but less prone to wrongful convictions.
The definition of Manslaughter is here and clearly wasn't an option for the CPS:
"Manslaughter is when a person unlawfully kills another human, but he/she did not intend to kill"

Apparently it was the judge who ruled out giving the manslaughter option to the jury, which I think was shame, as I posted yesterday, I doubt the jury would have even convicted him on that charge.

The jury heard 3 weeks of evidence, yet took just 3 hours to return their verdict, sadly some in the urban bubble of being ACAB and wannabe lawyers, that haven't heard the evidence and know fuck all about the law, will continue to think they know better than the jury.