Changing the definition of dangerous driving

[Elpenor]

It’s noticeable as well when asked questions for insurance / job applications about criminal convictions that certain motoring offences are often excluded.

 

[BillRiver]

I'd like to think it would be possible to reduce dangerous driving through effective driver education. It won't work on every driver, but I think it could work on quite a few.

I'm thinking gruesome footage of collisions, with some pre-story stuff about the human lives affected, and some footage of the aftermath in the hospital and at the graveside. Emotional but honest and fact-based films, hearing from people badly injured and/or grieving relatives, etc. Interviews with trauma surgeons and nurses. Showing the difference in outcomes at different speeds, etc.

Would have to be really hard-hitting and well-made, of course.

 

[Cid]

Considering that most of us are now walking around with pocket sized devices that track pretty much every aspect of our entire lives, I’m not sure adding gps based speed systems is that much of a leap…

GPS controlled speed systems may still have issues... But can't seen any reason not to have GPS speed tracking. Presumably could build in some averaging/communication with engine to deal with potential errors. Might be expensive, but I'm guessing far cheaper than the systems they use to try and control speed now.

 

[Teaboy]

I was convicted of criminal damage in 2001 (protest related) and sentenced to community service plus a fine. I did my community service in a group of men all of whom were there because of driving related convictions.

Not one of them had any intention of changing their behaviours - they told me so repeatedly.

Even being banned from driving didn't seem to deter them, indeed two had "driving while banned" in their list of convictions that had led to them doing the community service with me, and told me they were still driving.

When my teenaged nibling was a baby and toddler her parents used to buy cheap old BMW's, not register them to their name or address, and amass endless parking tickets and other fines, none of which they paid or cared about. They both used to drive dangerously and clearly felt immune to the law.

I think we're talking about different types of people. But, I'm still not convinced of my own argument so you're probably right.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I’ve experimented with cruise control on motorways, worth using during roadworks when there’s a limit as a reminder perhaps, but otherwise a massive pain, didn’t like the lack of control.

It's good in places like France, see how long you can go without touching pedals, ~70 miles is my record...

 

[BillRiver]

I think we're talking about different types of people. But, I'm still not convinced of my own argument so you're probably right.

It's also possible we both are.

 

[A380]

Harder test.

1. More like the emergency services standard defensive driving for blues and twos, but without the driving over the speed limit, whilst providing a commentary on hazards and car control. Town and rural drive of about 90 minutes. Minimum use of brakes with the car predominantly controlled via throttle, gear box and situational awareness.

2. Skid pan work - there are electronic cradle simulators now which bolt on to a car and let you use any dry car park. A half day training and then assessed on skid counter measures.

3. Motorway or other fast road session.

4. Closed track speed work, show that you can balance the various forces acting on a car when the tyres start to make a bit of noise and the car gets skittish.

5. Night driving section.

 

[BigTom]

Likely to be mandatory GPS based speed limiters on all new cars from July 2022 (will be in EU):

Mandatory speed limiters on EU cars from 2024 | AutoTrader

All new vehicles sold in Europe – including Northern Ireland but not Great Britain – will be fitted with a mandatory speed limiter from 2024 to keep cars within the speed limits and boost road safety.

www.autotrader.co.uk

The speed limiter technology, called Intelligent Speed Assistant (ISA) uses GPS data and/or traffic-sign-recognition cameras to determine the maximum speed allowed in an area. The system then limits the engine’s power and the vehicle’s speed to that limit.

but...

You can override the system by pressing hard on the accelerator, but the system will reactivate every time the car is started. However, the speed limiter will send haptic, audio and visual warnings until you start driving within the speed limits.

so you can just turn it off when you start driving. Still it'll be interesting to see just how shit GPS is when it comes to the accuracy needed for certain bits of roads/junctions. Maybe it'll be good enough but I doubt it.

 

[hash tag]

GPS controlled speed systems may still have issues... But can't seen any reason not to have GPS speed tracking. Presumably could build in some averaging/communication with engine to deal with potential errors. Might be expensive, but I'm guessing far cheaper than the systems they use to try and control speed now.

We hired a big pug recently and I am guessing it used cameras to recognise nearly every speed limit we saw even in car parks and flashed it up on a screen.

 

[Teaboy]

We hired a big pug recently and I am guessing it used cameras to recognise nearly every speed limit we saw even in car parks and flashed it up on a screen.

Yeah my car has that system. Its about 90% accurate on average I'd say. It does sometimes have a moment when it thinks the limit is 120mph but its generally OK. Struggles with temporary restrictions through roadworks mind.

 

[editor]

At least he got a fairly hefty driving ban, but it's never really clear if they run from the date of sentencing or the date of release. I'd hope it's the latter as it's pointless banning someone from driving if they're in jail.

Sometimes when I'm idly flicking channels, I'l come across one of those cops! action! whatever! shows and there'll be footage of some coked up laaad in a stolen vehicle narrowly avoiding flattening pedestrians as he's chased through some northern town centre at night. When he's eventually pulled out of the wreckage at the end of the chase, I'm often surprised how short their subsequent driving ban is.

 

[Teaboy]

Sometimes when I'm idly flicking channels, I'l come across one of those cops! action! whatever! shows and there'll be footage of some coked up laaad in a stolen vehicle narrowly avoiding flattening pedestrians as he's chased through some northern town centre at night. When he's eventually pulled out of the wreckage at the end of the chase, I'm often surprised how short their subsequent driving ban is.

Yeah, its normally something like a 2 year ban when he was already serving a ban. That'll learn him.

 

[Flavour]

In Italy there are two laws regarding newly-qualified drivers which I think are interesting, and they apply to everyone for the first three years after passing test:
A) not allowed to drive cars beyond a certain size (might be 1.2 litre engine, can't remember exactly)
B) any points docked for any offense are doubled

 

[LDC]

Sometimes when I'm idly flicking channels, I'l come across one of those cops! action! whatever! shows and there'll be footage of some coked up laaad in a stolen vehicle narrowly avoiding flattening pedestrians as he's chased through some northern town centre at night. When he's eventually pulled out of the wreckage at the end of the chase, I'm often surprised how short their subsequent driving ban is.

Yeah, the drivers round me (all lads in their 20s) regularly drive at 70-80mph + through small residential streets here at all hours of the day and night, often racing each other as well. Quite regular crashes, very rare police stops, even a couple of deaths, but nothing seems to deter them. They happily drive with no insurance as well. I gave up confronting them a couple of years ago after a row when one car mounted the pavement and tried to run me over at speed. No word of exaggeration it missed me by 1-2ft as I jumped round a corner. Reported to the police as I got the license plate. Cop came round about an hour later, literally shrugged his shoulders about it.

 

[maomao]

In Italy there are two laws regarding newly-qualified drivers which I think are interesting, and they apply to everyone for the first three years after passing test:
A) not allowed to drive cars beyond a certain size (might be 1.2 litre engine, can't remember exactly)
B) any points docked for any offense are doubled

And nearly twice the per capita rate of road deaths. Though interestingly not much higher per vehicle which suggests they have a lot more cars.

 

[Teaboy]

In Italy there are two laws regarding newly-qualified drivers which I think are interesting, and they apply to everyone for the first three years after passing test:
A) not allowed to drive cars beyond a certain size (might be 1.2 litre engine, can't remember exactly)
B) any points docked for any offense are doubled

For the points being doubled there is something similar in the UK. I think its if you get 6 points in your first year or first two years (can't be bothered to check) its loss of licence and have to resit the test.

As for not being allowed to drive a vehicle above a certain engine size I think its a good idea but may be difficult to implement. The old rule of small engine = slow car is not as clear cut as it used to be. What with engine tuning and electric cars and stuff theoretically slower cars can still shift.

Basically I think that for the first two years after passing you should have to drive a Renault Twizy, that's it. Also if you get to 12 points and banned its also 2 years in a Twizy. Its Twizy purgatory all round.

 

[sleaterkinney]

A lot of driving problems are down to the motoring culture, particularly in the south east which is to be really aggressive - coupled with drivers thinking they’re better than they actually are. If they were taught to share the road it would be a lot better. I remember when I was learning to drive and other drivers would be cutting me up in an instructors car…

 

[A380]

For the points being doubled there is something similar in the UK. I think its if you get 6 points in your first year or first two years (can't be bothered to check) its loss of licence and have to resit the test.

As for not being allowed to drive a vehicle above a certain engine size I think its a good idea but may be difficult to implement. The old rule of small engine = slow car is not as clear cut as it used to be. What with engine tuning and electric cars and stuff theoretically slower cars can still shift.

Basically I think that for the first two years after passing you should have to drive a Renault Twizy, that's it. Also if you get to 12 points and banned its also 2 years in a Twizy. Its Twizy purgatory all round.

Yes here its six points for a ban in your first two years and a retest before getting your licence back.

 

[A380]

For the points being doubled there is something similar in the UK. I think its if you get 6 points in your first year or first two years (can't be bothered to check) its loss of licence and have to resit the test.

As for not being allowed to drive a vehicle above a certain engine size I think its a good idea but may be difficult to implement. The old rule of small engine = slow car is not as clear cut as it used to be. What with engine tuning and electric cars and stuff theoretically slower cars can still shift.

Basically I think that for the first two years after passing you should have to drive a Renault Twizy, that's it. Also if you get to 12 points and banned its also 2 years in a Twizy. Its Twizy purgatory all round.

I think I'd love a Twizy, they look stupid but also look a hoot to hoon round town in...

 

[Dogsauce]

Most problems, not just driving, could be solved by the establishment of a National Twat Register. Being on the register would limit the size of engine you are allowed, hours at which you can drive, pubs and sports grounds you can go in, ownership of pets, the state gets to choose the name of your kids etc.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Currently death by dangerous driving (or death by driving under the influence of drink or drugs) can land you up to 14 years inside. Death by careless driving up to 5 years.

The threshold for proving dangerous driving is high, the standard of driving must fall far below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious that driving in that way would be dangerous.

This is vague and notoriously hard to prove, so the CPS often go with the lesser careless driving which is driving that falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver.

With 5 years being the maximum, very often there is no jail time at all for death by careless driving, if it does get imposed it is minimal.

Cycling UK is calling for the definition of dangerous driving to be changed in the upcoming Police & Crime bill to:

Driving which is so sub-standard that it would result in an immediate failure if committed during a driving test.


And careless driving changed to:

Driving that was only substandard enough to warrant a points deduction.



Sounds fair?

If someone died, then it was dangerous driving.

 

[spanglechick]

And nearly twice the per capita rate of road deaths. Though interestingly not much higher per vehicle which suggests they have a lot more cars.

When I worked in Italy, no one wore seatbelts. They’d be slightly offended I I put mine on.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

The problem with the enforcement/criminal justice end of things is that juries and judges are incredibly easy on motor vehicle crime. It's seen as a "that could've been me" crime in the way that burglary/gbh etc. isn't.

isn't that why the 'causing death by...' offences were brought in? because courts / juries were reluctant to convict for manslaughter?