Changing the definition of dangerous driving

[farmerbarleymow]

That doesn't sound like something that could be done "easily".

It could if all vehicles were retrofitted with the required kit. In many ways, the prospect of self-driving cars if a good one as they can be programmed to comply with all the road traffic laws - taking the reckless human out of the equation. They need to sort out the crash issues first, but it could lead to a much safer future.

 

[Spymaster]

Easily solved by mandatory cameras and other sensors like GPS in every vehicle, livestreaming all the data back to a central data centre. If you behave like a lunatic they can take over your car, drive it to a safe location, lock the doors and call the police to come and sort you out.

There's nothing that you can put into a car that can't be disabled or 'adapted' by those with the know-how.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Regardless of whether points or execution is correct for 36 in a 30, I do quite like the system of speed awareness courses that we currently have, I have done one and it was the first time in nearly 30 years that I had needed to think about the rules of the road and shit. Does seem a bit crap that you can pass at 17 and that's it until you're 70 when you self proclaim that you are fit to drive. A lot happened between me being 17 and going on the course, ABS brakes and power steering being the norm means you don't pump your brakes and do not steer in to a skid, for a start...

 

[DownwardDog]

There's nothing that you can put into a car that can't be disabled or 'adapted' by those with the know-how.

You could certainly make it so difficult and expensive only a few people would bother. Cf the mega encrypted ECU in the Corvette C8.

 

[maomao]

That doesn't sound like something that could be done "easily".

The drone driving is the only hard bit and I'm sure we could make it work without that. Let them walk home.

 

[LDC]

I nearly died in a car crash 9 years ago.

On a Sunday afternoon in lovely weather I was doing a steady 65-70mph on a very quiet motorway in Scotland with my girlfriend in the passenger seat on the way back from a holiday. Some bloke was racing his sports car at what the police thought afterwards was over 100mph. He lost control or mid-judged something and clipped the back corner of our car. We rolled and flipped and did all sorts, during which my head and right hand went out the smashed side window. Lost a chunk of my head down to the skull and a smashed and lacerated right hand from scrapping the tarmac, plus some bumps and bruises. Did a few days in hospital having an op to sort them out, and then 3 ops over the course of a year to patch the head up. Girlfriend had soft tissue injuries that plagued her for 2-3 years. Fucked up best part of a year not being able to work etc.

He was charged with dangerous driving, pleaded not guilty right up until the court case then bargained it down to driving without due care and attention. Got a few points and £200 fine. Fucking joke. I didn't want him to go to jail, but lifetime or very lengthy ban and a massive fine ffs.

 

[spanglechick]

I failed twice, both times because I was repeatedly hesitant at junctions. Now, it’s not good driving - and can provoke wankers to drive dangerously in unsafe overtaking manoeuvres - but I’m not sure taking too long to get out of a junction should provoke a criminal offence of careless driving with a potential custodial sentence. I reckon I still do it, maybe a couple of times a year. If I’m not sure I’ve got time to make the turn, I’d rather wait than push my luck - and sometimes that turns out to be the wrong call. To do the opposite doesn’t feel safer, to me.

I think re-testing after points is fair. I got points only once (doing 30mph over Tower Bridge) and the local force didn’t even offer a speed awareness course. I could see the argument in permanent banning after 12, too.

I don’t like the idea of gps tracking every driver, because it feels dystopian and intrusive, but you can’t argue that on motorways the average speed limit routes are much better adhered to than trad speed cameras. If we were all driving under the beady eye of Big Brother, safety would improve.

I often think I’d quite like an automatic speed limiter in my car. One that uses gps to know the changing limits as you drive around, and keeps you below that. People talk about safety and evasive manoeuvres- but that’s surely rare enough that you could be monitored to check you’re not abusing some kind of override mechanism. Perhaps drivers would self report use of a legitimate override to their insurance companies.

 

[Elpenor]

I remember so many crashes at my old company involving our Japanese expats, they and a handful of other countries had licences which could be used over here without needing to do a UK test, the licence needs to be exchanged for a UK driving licence I think.

Roundabouts, right of way and turning across oncoming traffic were the main issues. Things where you need to use your own judgement. Probably the same main issues for UK drivers too tbh, but theoretically they’re used to the road layout.

 

[maomao]

I failed twice, both times because I was repeatedly hesitant at junctions. Now, it’s not good driving - and can provoke wankers to drive dangerously in unsafe overtaking manoeuvres - but I’m not sure taking too long to get out of a junction should provoke a criminal offence of careless driving with a potential custodial sentence. I reckon I still do it, maybe a couple of times a year. If I’m not sure I’ve got time to make the turn, I’d rather wait than push my luck - and sometimes that turns out to be the wrong call. To do the opposite doesn’t feel safer, to me.

I think re-testing after points is fair. I got points only once (doing 30mph over Tower Bridge) and the local force didn’t even offer a speed awareness course. I could see the argument in permanent banning after 12, too.

I don’t like the idea of gps tracking every driver, because it feels dystopian and intrusive, but you can’t argue that on motorways the average speed limit routes are much better adhered to than trad speed cameras. If we were all driving under the beady eye of Big Brother, safety would improve.

I often think I’d quite like an automatic speed limiter in my car. One that uses gps to know the changing limits as you drive around, and keeps you below that. People talk about safety and evasive manoeuvres- but that’s surely rare enough that you could be monitored to check you’re not abusing some kind of override mechanism. Perhaps drivers would self report use of a legitimate override to their insurance companies.

I spent many years working with gps and don't believe it's accurate enough to determine speed limit. However, I would like to see a maximum speed cap on all cars of say 80mph (fast enough to overtake on a motorway).

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I failed twice, both times because I was repeatedly hesitant at junctions. Now, it’s not good driving - and can provoke wankers to drive dangerously in unsafe overtaking manoeuvres - but I’m not sure taking too long to get out of a junction should provoke a criminal offence of careless driving with a potential custodial sentence. I reckon I still do it, maybe a couple of times a year. If I’m not sure I’ve got time to make the turn, I’d rather wait than push my luck - and sometimes that turns out to be the wrong call. To do the opposite doesn’t feel safer, to me.

I think re-testing after points is fair. I got points only once (doing 30mph over Tower Bridge) and the local force didn’t even offer a speed awareness course. I could see the argument in permanent banning after 12, too.

I don’t like the idea of gps tracking every driver, because it feels dystopian and intrusive, but you can’t argue that on motorways the average speed limit routes are much better adhered to than trad speed cameras. If we were all driving under the beady eye of Big Brother, safety would improve.

I often think I’d quite like an automatic speed limiter in my car. One that uses gps to know the changing limits as you drive around, and keeps you below that. People talk about safety and evasive manoeuvres- but that’s surely rare enough that you could be monitored to check you’re not abusing some kind of override mechanism. Perhaps drivers would self report use of a legitimate override to their insurance companies.

Considering that most of us are now walking around with pocket sized devices that track pretty much every aspect of our entire lives, I’m not sure adding gps based speed systems is that much of a leap…

 

[spanglechick]

Apparently most usa state driving tests are little more than driving round the block and reverse parking. Certainly the uk test is one of the more exacting ones, around the world.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I spent many years working with gps and don't believe it's accurate enough to determine speed limit. However, I would like to see a maximum speed cap on all cars of say 80mph (fast enough to overtake on a motorway).

It doesn’t have to be that accurate. Set it to err on the side of caution, then the worst that can happen is a car goes a bit slower than is allowed. Oh dear, how sad etc etc

 

[spanglechick]

I spent many years working with gps and don't believe it's accurate enough to determine speed limit. However, I would like to see a maximum speed cap on all cars of say 80mph (fast enough to overtake on a motorway).

I dunno. In many ways speeding on motorways is low priority. It’s built up areas and country roads that seem most pressing - and an 80 limiter wouldn’t help there.

The “black box” gizmos that the insurance companies offer to drivers to bring down their premiums presumably track speed though perhaps not through gps.
The speed showing on my satnav always seems to correlate with the dashboard - and that’s definitely gps

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Apparently most usa state driving tests are little more than driving round the block and reverse parking. Certainly the uk test is one of the more exacting ones, around the world.

If you want a laugh have a look on YouTube for people taking the Indian driving test. You can watch one in it’s entirety, don’t worry, it really won’t take long

 

[maomao]

If you want a laugh have a look on YouTube for people taking the Indian driving test. You can watch one in it’s entirety, don’t worry, it really won’t take long

Bet it takes longer than the Chinese one which involves handing a red envelope to the examiner.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

There's nothing that you can put into a car that can't be disabled or 'adapted' by those with the know-how.

Programme them to notify the data centre of any tampering - then the reaper drones can be dispatched to teach the miscreant a lesson.

 

[cupid_stunt]

If you want a laugh have a look on YouTube for people taking the Indian driving test. You can watch one in it’s entirety, don’t worry, it really won’t take long

Blimey!

 

[Spymaster]

If you want a laugh have a look on YouTube for people taking the Indian driving test. You can watch one in it’s entirety, don’t worry, it really won’t take long

Until quite recently, Mexico led the field for simplicity of driving test. There wasn't one. You just had to prove where you lived and pay 40 bucks.

 

[Spymaster]

If you want a laugh have a look on YouTube for people taking the Indian driving test. You can watch one in it’s entirety, don’t worry, it really won’t take long

Until quite recently, Mexico led the field for simplicity of driving test. There wasn't one. You just had to prove where you lived and pay 40 bucks.

 

[maomao]

I dunno. In many ways speeding on motorways is low priority. It’s built up areas and country roads that seem most pressing - and an 80 limiter wouldn’t help there.

The “black box” gizmos that the insurance companies offer to drivers to bring down their premiums presumably track speed though perhaps not through gps.
The speed showing on my satnav always seems to correlate with the dashboard - and that’s definitely gps

I would just be worried about the possibility of cars suddenly slowing to 30 in the middle of a motorway but there's probably another way round that.

A maximum speed limit for all cars might help get rid of some of the macho crap that goes with driving. But then it may be easier just to ban men under 25 or 30 from driving.

 

[hash tag]

Tempting fate here....I passed first time and have never had points. I cannot remember the last time I had an accident regardless of fault. When I took my test there was no theory or CBT. I could pass my original test, no problems. The current test, no way. In past years, I have taken a company driving test and a few MIDAS tests, which both involve theory and CBT and got by. Concerned about my ability, I took a basic AIM course and got 88%.

Somewhere else I recently posted an encounter with a driver displaying a P plate. They clearly broke the law by performing an illegal turn. This begged the questions, if they are not confident, should they be driving. What is the L plate for? To warn other drivers you are not confident, to warn other drivers you might do something stupid or what. That person, I would suggest be asked to take another test.

 

[spanglechick]

Tempting fate here....I passed first time and have never had points. I cannot remember the last time I had an accident regardless of fault. When I took my test there was no theory or CBT. I could pass my original test, no problems. The current test, no way. In past years, I have taken a company driving test and a few MIDAS tests, which both involve theory and CBT and got by. Concerned about my ability, I took a basic AIM course and got 88%.

Somewhere else I recently posted an encounter with a driver displaying a P plate. They clearly broke the law by performing an illegal turn. This begged the questions, if they are not confident, should they be driving. What is the L plate for? To warn other drivers you are not confident, to warn other drivers you might do something stupid or what. That person, I would suggest be asked to take another test.

P plates come from Australia, I believe, where it’s compulsory to display them for a year after you pass. On a P plate I have a feeling you can’t use motorways and iiirc there might be something about carrying passengers too.

Here of course, they have no legal status. I’ve always taken them to mean that the driver might stall, or take time at junctions, or forget to cancel their indicators. Not dangerous - more inexperienced and requiring of extra patience.

 

[Elpenor]

I always take P plates to mean that the driver probably shouldn’t have passed their test, but somehow did.

 

[Saul Goodman]

.I often think I’d quite like an automatic speed limiter in my car. One that uses gps to know the changing limits as you drive around, and keeps you below that. People talk about safety and evasive manoeuvres- but that’s surely rare enough that you could be monitored to check you’re not abusing some kind of override mechanism. Perhaps drivers would self report use of a legitimate override to their insurance companies.

I hired a van a few weeks ago when I moved house. It had cruise control and an adjustable speed limiter. The limiter seemed like a good addition, which I set to 2km above the speed limit before planting my foot to the floor and holding it there for the duration. An excellent way to not lose your license, but probably way more dangerous than not using it,
... and cruise control should be banned.

 

[Elpenor]

I’ve experimented with cruise control on motorways, worth using during roadworks when there’s a limit as a reminder perhaps, but otherwise a massive pain, didn’t like the lack of control.

 

[Winot]

I’d personally give a lifetime ban the moment you got to 12 points. You’ve (usually) had 3 warnings by the time you get to that point, anyone still driving like a cock after that really doesn’t deserve to be on the road.

And no “hardship” defence, ever.

This.

I'd be happy to see the dangerous driving definition changed. The problem with the enforcement/criminal justice end of things is that juries and judges are incredibly easy on motor vehicle crime. It's seen as a "that could've been me" crime in the way that burglary/gbh etc. isn't.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I’ve experimented with cruise control on motorways, worth using during roadworks when there’s a limit as a reminder perhaps, but otherwise a massive pain, didn’t like the lack of control.

I experimented with it on a 40km stretch of a 100kmh twisty road. Definitely not something I'd recommend.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The law is definitely too lenient on shit driving. And I don't just mean speeding, I mean all shit driving, especially mobile phone use. Using a mobile phone whilst driving should carry the same penalty as drink driving.

 

[hash tag]

This.

I'd be happy to see the dangerous driving definition changed. The problem with the enforcement/criminal justice end of things is that juries and judges are incredibly easy on motor vehicle crime. It's seen as a "that could've been me" crime in the way that burglary/gbh etc. isn't.

A major issue. Many people don't see motoring offences as being a crime.

 

[BillRiver]

I think you're right in general but I wonder whether motoring might be a special case, an exception of sorts.

Of course there is a lot of crossover between motoring criminality and other criminality but there are also an awful lot of people who will go through their entire lives and the only time they come into conflict with the police will be through motoring offences.

How many people here have never been arrested? Never charged with anything but have been given points on their licence or sent to an awareness course? Quite a few I'd wager.

So many people go about their day to day and have never and will never be involved in crime until they get behind the wheel. The prospect of prison for people like this will be a lot different then general criminality where the risk of going to jail is just one of those things. It won't work for everyone but it might work for a lot of these people.

I'm more speculating here though, I dunno.

I was convicted of criminal damage in 2001 (protest related) and sentenced to community service plus a fine. I did my community service in a group of men all of whom were there because of driving related convictions.

Not one of them had any intention of changing their behaviours - they told me so repeatedly.

Even being banned from driving didn't seem to deter them, indeed two had "driving while banned" in their list of convictions that had led to them doing the community service with me, and told me they were still driving.

When my teenaged nibling was a baby and toddler her parents used to buy cheap old BMW's, not register them to their name or address, and amass endless parking tickets and other fines, none of which they paid or cared about. They both used to drive dangerously and clearly felt immune to the law.