Change UK: Chuka Umunna resigns from Labour party and launches Independent Group

[Sasaferrato]

You should vote Labour then, they're the only party who're offering anything like the programme you've outlined above.

I have done in the past, and may do again. Post Corbyn though.

 

[brogdale]

I have done in the past, and may do again. Post Corbyn though.

...and that, children, is how it's done.

 

[butchersapron]

I have done in the past, and may do again. Post Corbyn though.

After the things you want have been removed from the manifesto. Genius.

 

[killer b]

I have done in the past, and may do again. Post Corbyn though.

Post-Corbyn there's a good chance they won't be offering the manifesto you say you want.

 

[Sue]

...and that, children, is how it's done.

I've no idea what's going on. This surely is the thread that keeps on giving.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Corbyn's Labour Party got more votes than Blair's did in 2001 or 2005, and was only 800,00 or so behind that 1997 high water mark. So, it seems you're wrong.

Will.

Labour 4% behind at present.

May must be having Momentum blessed on a daily basis. The utter shambles that is in government should be in an 'out for a generation' scenario, but they are not.

 

[butchersapron]

Will.

Labour 4% behind at present.

May must be having Momentum blessed on a daily basis. The utter shambles that is in government should be in an 'out for a generation' scenario, but they are not.

What were they behind in both actual election result and in polling when corbyn took over? There has been a massive rise in labour support in both of these. Real life doesn't support what you are saying. Which is, i suppose why you live in this fantasy world.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I've no idea what's going on. This surely is the thread that keeps on giving.

Are you old enough to remember what was termed 'Paternal Conservatism'? That espoused my personal philosophy.

I'm as alienated from the party that I supported for too long, as many Labour people feel about the party under Corbyn.

One begins to realise that 'living in interesting times' is indeed a curse.

 

[killer b]

If you must highlight some of your posts in a colour, please make it the appropriate green, sas.

 

[Serge Forward]

It always makes me chuckle when people refer to the Corbyn project as "hard left". Hard left as in well to the right of Attlee, Wilson, Callaghan and Foot... and none of them were great shakes either. Rather than socialist, in any meaningful sense, traditional Labour has always been a left wing of capital style organisation - aside from when it was just the Tory Party Mk II in its "New Labour" period of course.

 

[Sue]

Are you old enough to remember what was termed 'Paternal Conservatism'? That espoused my personal philosophy.

I'm as alienated from the party that I supported for too long, as many Labour people feel about the party under Corbyn.

One begins to realise that 'living in interesting times' is indeed a curse.

So you've gone from Tory to Labour to Socialist? Communist by Christmas I reckon.

 

[elbows]

Tony Benn was much more nuanced (and intelligent) than Corbyn. Tony Benn's policies would have been set out to be acceptable.

Its hard to judge the latter point because of the different eras. But surely one of the phenomenon we see today with Labour is due to changes in what was considered 'acceptable' over the last 40 years. In terms of mainstream political discourse, everything got very narrow, and even small variations from what was misleadingly called the centre ground were condemned as extreme and were not given room to live in the mainstream acceptable political landscape. But the way the world has moved this century has shaken things up again, especially after the banking crisis and austerity. We see some genuine extremes emerging, but also all sorts of positions that lie in between those extremes and the old centre ground. Those who still cling to that centre will cry 'extreme!' at all of them, but their narrowing was also extreme, and their reactions to the loss of this tight control should not be confused with those who do not fear these in-between territories but only the genuine extremes.

 

[brogdale]

Are you old enough to remember what was termed 'Paternal Conservatism'? That espoused my personal philosophy.

That's a genuinely sad post.

 

[killer b]

So you've gone from Tory to Labour to Socialist? Communist by Christmas I reckon.

This is a perfect example of the 'politics as identity' thing we were talking about last night tbh. Nothing to do with actual politics at all.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Post-Corbyn there's a good chance they won't be offering the manifesto you say you want.

Perhaps not, but surely the worst excesses of the current government will be overturned?

It all comes down to money. Start taxing Amazon, Starbucks, Costa etc properly, then there is considerably more money. As a bonus they may fuck off if properly taxed, leaving the market to home grown companies.

 

[butchersapron]

So you've gone from Tory to Labour to Socialist? Communist by Christmas I reckon.

He thinks the tories are fascists, that labour are communists, that the SNP are nazis (each one posted and argued at juvenile level by him on here). So god knows what he thinks communists are - US style libertarians maybe?

 

[Sasaferrato]

That's a genuinely sad post.

Really? A genuine desire to improve the lot of the people of the country? I appreciate that it is not the politics of today, and probably shouldn't be, under that title, but the principles remain valid.

 

[belboid]

Will.

Labour 4% behind at present.

May must be having Momentum blessed on a daily basis. The utter shambles that is in government should be in an 'out for a generation' scenario, but they are not.

Damn, if only Chris 'Integrity' Leslie had stayed shadow chancellor. Then they could have been promising to retain 90% of austerity and 98% of welfare cuts and to throw money at property speculators! I bet they'd have been well ahead in the polls if that were the case.

 

[Sasaferrato]

If you must highlight some of your posts in a colour, please make it the appropriate green, sas.

They are in green.

 

[butchersapron]

They are in green.

Well do it in the right font then. You know exactly what i mean.

 

[brogdale]

Really? A genuine desire to improve the lot of the people of the country? I appreciate that it is not the politics of today, and probably shouldn't be, under that title, but the principles remain valid.

Stating that your 'political philosophy' comprises being infantilised by the party of capital and wealth defence is really sad, yes.

 

[elbows]

Really? A genuine desire to improve the lot of the people of the country? I appreciate that it is not the politics of today, and probably shouldn't be, under that title, but the principles remain valid.

Some of what was angrily attacked as 'the nanny state' during the Blair era might have gone under the banner of paternalism instead in a previous era, do you think?

 

[Shechemite]

So you've gone from Tory to Labour to Socialist? Communist by Christmas I reckon.

Judging by this leaked photo, Sasaferrato is sorting out his Christmas early

 

[8ball]

Really? A genuine desire to improve the lot of the people of the country? I appreciate that it is not the politics of today, and probably shouldn't be, under that title, but the principles remain valid.

My issue with it is that it is patronising (in both senses) and doesn’t acknowledge power relations or their shaky legitimacy, but the idea that people are connected to each other and that society’s development is hindered rather than helped by Messianic figures and simplistic utopias is something I think quite a few people on here would agree with.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Some of what was angrily attacked as 'the nanny state' during the Blair era might have gone under the banner of paternalism instead in a previous era, do you think?

Yes it may well have.

Of course, the current attack on welfare started under Blair, subsequently continued viciously by the current government.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Stating that your 'political philosophy' comprises being infantilised by the party of capital and wealth defence is really sad, yes.

Well, the results were better than anything that has occurred in the last few decades. I take your point though.

 

[Sasaferrato]

My issue with it is that it is patronising (in both senses) and doesn’t acknowledge power relations or their shaky legitimacy, but the idea that people are connected to each other and that society’s development is hindered rather than helped by Messianic figures and simplistic utopias is something I think quite a few people on here would agree with.

See #1794.

 

[8ball]

See #1794.

Which results are you talking about exactly? And when (1945-1979, perhaps)?

 

[Sasaferrato]

So you've gone from Tory to Labour to Socialist? Communist by Christmas I reckon.

I haven't actually moved at all, in terms of belief.

Other things change though, and leave you politically homeless. You have to decide which is closest to your view, and vote for them.

I used to vote for Labour in the Council elections, Conservative in the General Elections and Labour in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.

Now... I don't think I'll be voting at all. For the first time in 45 years.

 

[Sue]

I haven't actually moved at all, in terms of belief.

Other things change though, and leave you politically homeless. You have to decide which is closest to your view, and vote for them.

I used to vote for Labour in the Council elections, Conservative in the General Elections and Labour in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.

Now... I don't think I'll be voting at all. For the first time in 45 years.

So you're not really up for socialism then because socialism hasn't changed.