Change UK: Chuka Umunna resigns from Labour party and launches Independent Group

[elbows]

I bet Sasaferrato was a begruding fan of Tony Benn back in the day. Well, probably not.

But I do hope he feels free to pick some past Labour figures, leaders or PMs that he considers to be the vaguely acceptable face of socialism.

 

[Sasaferrato]

How would a socialist government be achieved by Labour, except via a socialist leadership? I don't understand. Which other current in the parliamentary party do you imagine would deliver anything like a socialist manifesto?

Labour, with the anti-Semites and bullies driven out. Labour post Corbyn.

I find it hard to understand why Tom Watson has remained where he is, he is the polar opposite of Corbyn.

Incidentally, Labour are not the only party to suffer from the arriviste phenomenon, it is happening in the Conservative party also, attempting to move the party in the direction of fascism.

I was fairly content with the way things were being done, the current government (apart from being paralysed rabbits in the headlights over Brexit) have degraded the welfare system to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.

Labour should be in a commanding position in the polls, but they are not. You have to ask yourself why not.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

by no means, he's going to be working on the drainage of falkland sound

View attachment 162627

a new and prestigious public space will be opened where now the waters of falkland sound are found. Sasaferrato will be equipped with bucket and spade. a number of former people have expressed interest in this exciting project so he won't be on his own for long!

A little bit tasteless that, seeing as what Sas went through in Falkland waters.

 

[belboid]

the vaguely acceptable face of socialism.

only in order to pull the pendulum back a little bit to where it should be, of course. Not do anything like, you know, actually be socialist.

 

[butchersapron]

Labour, with the anti-Semites and bullies driven out. Labour post Corbyn.

I find it hard to understand why Tom Watson has remained where he is, he is the polar opposite of Corbyn.

Incidentally, Labour are not the only party to suffer from the arriviste phenomenon, it is happening in the Conservative party also, attempting to move the party in the direction of fascism.

I was fairly content with the way things were being done, the current government (apart from being paralysed rabbits in the headlights over Brexit) have degraded the welfare system to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.

Labour should be in a commanding position in the polls, but they are not. You have to ask yourself why not.

Rothschilds? Stalin?

 

[Sasaferrato]

I bet Sasaferrato was a begruding fan of Tony Benn back in the day. Well, probably not.

But I do hope he feels free to pick some past Labour figures, leaders or PMs that he considers to be the vaguely acceptable face of socialism.

Not at all begrudging. I had great admiration for Tony Benn. A man of huge integrity.

You don't have to be a supporter of a particular party to recognise the stature of some of its members.

 

[billy_bob]

We need a period of re-balance.

The current government are beyond deplorable, especially with regard to the destruction of the welfare system.

A socialist government is required to bring the 'pendulum' back to the center especially with regard to welfare and employment law.

Labour is so toxic at the moment, that they would be unlikely to win an election were one to be called tomorrow, which given the state of the current government is beyond astonishing.

I'm deeply confused. So the toxicity of the current Labour leadership - which mainly results from the claim (which in any case is wrong on several levels) that they're socialist and therefore bad - is unhelpfully preventing Labour from providing the socialism that this country badly needs to implement in order that centrism can be restored?

 

[belboid]

Labour, with the anti-Semites and bullies driven out. Labour post Corbyn.

I find it hard to understand why Tom Watson has remained where he is, he is the polar opposite of Corbyn.

Incidentally, Labour are not the only party to suffer from the arriviste phenomenon, it is happening in the Conservative party also, attempting to move the party in the direction of fascism.

I was fairly content with the way things were being done, the current government (apart from being paralysed rabbits in the headlights over Brexit) have degraded the welfare system to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.

Labour should be in a commanding position in the polls, but they are not. You have to ask yourself why not.

See the bit you put in parentheses

 

[killer b]

Labour, with the anti-Semites and bullies driven out. Labour post Corbyn.

I find it hard to understand why Tom Watson has remained where he is, he is the polar opposite of Corbyn.

Incidentally, Labour are not the only party to suffer from the arriviste phenomenon, it is happening in the Conservative party also, attempting to move the party in the direction of fascism.

I was fairly content with the way things were being done, the current government (apart from being paralysed rabbits in the headlights over Brexit) have degraded the welfare system to the point where it is no longer fit for purpose.

Which Labour MPs would deliver a socialist manifesto though, other than the members of the Campaign Group who're currently in charge - the most socialist current in the parliamentary Labour Party, who's manifesto in 2017 was still a long way off socialism?

Labour should be in a commanding position in the polls, but they are not. You have to ask yourself why not.

this is a question that's been asked, discussed and answered on multiple politics threads over the last couple of years, as you'd know if you bothered reading any of them.

 

[billy_bob]

Ah, I get it. What we need is the socialism bus. But socialism is the depot. No-one actually wants to go to the depot - that would be stupid. We have to get off the socialism bus before we get to socialism.

 

[Sasaferrato]

only in order to pull the pendulum back a little bit to where it should be, of course. Not do anything like, you know, actually be socialist.

Where it should be is in balance.

A decent welfare system that does not belittle and dehumanise recipients.

Employment law that recognises the needs of employees as well as employers.

Fair taxation, where people like Amazon etc pay their dues.

A national house building program.

 

[killer b]

Where it should be is in balance.

A decent welfare system that does not belittle and dehumanise recipients.

Employment law that recognises the needs of employees as well as employers.

Fair taxation, where people like Amazon etc pay their dues.

A national house building program.

this sounds like the 2017 Labour manifesto tbf

 

[elbows]

Not at all begrudging. I had great admiration for Tony Benn. A man of huge integrity.

You don't have to be a supporter of a particular party to recognise the stature of some of its members.

I'm glad you respected him because it means I can move on to a follow up question:

Even if you respected him, couldnt you make exactly the same claim about him as about Corbyn, if we were in a parallel universe where Benn was still alive and younger and leader of the party? That he would cost them votes and thus stop Labour forming a government.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Which Labour MPs would deliver a socialist manifesto though, other than the members of the Campaign Group who're currently in charge - the most socialist current in the parliamentary Labour Party, who's manifesto in 2017 was still a long way off socialism?


this is a question that's been asked, discussed and answered on multiple politics threads over the last couple of years, as you'd know if you bothered reading any of them.

Well, quite, but as now, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

I well remember in the Blair years Urban's assertion that the Blair government was not a socialist government, yet Labour supporters voted for him. Labour voters that will not apparently vote for Corbyn.

 

[brogdale]

.

 

[butchersapron]

this sounds like the 2017 Labour manifesto tbf

The one that trad long term members like corbyn pushed through and that got 3 million more votes (12 million) than the previous election - at a time when literally no one would or did vote for them.

Thing about kids is that they think history started when they started to take an interest. Seems to be about late 2015 for this one.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, quite, but as now, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

I well remember in the Blair years Urban's assertion that the Blair government was not a socialist government, yet Labour supporters voted for him. Labour voters that will not apparently vote for Corbyn.

Look at the actual voting figures for the love of all that fucking good in this world. Tell us what they show.

 

[brogdale]

It's almost as though for some of these Blairite cling-ons the so-called 'bubble' of social media has actually blown apart their own personal, delusion bubble and, exposed to what voters, public and members really think of their useless tenure of seats...they just can't cope...their poor little circuits have blown.

 

[billy_bob]

Well, quite, but as now, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

I well remember in the Blair years Urban's assertion that the Blair government was not a socialist government, yet Labour supporters voted for him. Labour voters that will not apparently vote for Corbyn.

That's not just Blair's assertion: 'the Blair government was not a socialist government' is rock-solid, incontrovertible fact, unless you know nothing about socialism, or the Blair government, or history or politics in general.

 

[elbows]

It's almost as though for some of these Blairite cling-ons the so-called 'bubble' of social media has actually blown apart their own personal, delusion bubble and, exposed to what voters, public and members really think of their useless tenure of seats...they just can't cope...their poor little circuits have blown.

They were spoilt by the insulation of the TV era, a long and narrowing era that sat between the golden age of heckling at public meetings and the heckling 2.0 of the interwebs.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'm glad you respected him because it means I can move on to a follow up question:

Even if you respected him, couldnt you make exactly the same claim about him as about Corbyn, if we were in a parallel universe where Benn was still alive and younger and leader of the party? That he would cost them votes and thus stop Labour forming a government.

Tony Benn was much more nuanced (and intelligent) than Corbyn. Tony Benn's policies would have been set out to be acceptable.

Thankfully, the bampots of Momentum have tipped their hand. They haven't realised that if you get yourselves elected with a decent majority, then you can implement your policies. Not thankfully, they have put paid to a Labour government under Corbyn.

 

[belboid]

Well, quite, but as now, there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

I well remember in the Blair years Urban's assertion that the Blair government was not a socialist government, yet Labour supporters voted for him. Labour voters that will not apparently vote for Corbyn.

Corbyn's Labour Party got more votes than Blair's did in 2001 or 2005, and was only 800,00 or so behind that 1997 high water mark. So, it seems you're wrong.

 

[elbows]

That's not just Blair's assertion: 'the Blair government was not a socialist government' is rock-solid, incontrovertible fact, unless you know nothing about socialism, or the Blair government, or history or politics in general.

And which way the Sun told people to vote.

 

[Pickman's model]

A little bit tasteless that, seeing as what Sas went through in Falkland waters.

maybe so, and if it offends i apologise

 

[Sasaferrato]

this sounds like the 2017 Labour manifesto tbf

I have always been in favour of the ordinary person having a good standard of living. Disposable income drives the economy.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tony Benn was much more nuanced (and intelligent) than Corbyn. Tony Benn's policies would have been set out to be acceptable.

Thankfully, the bampots of Momentum have tipped their hand. They haven't realised that if you get yourselves elected with a decent majority, then you can implement your policies. Not thankfully, they have put paid to a Labour government under Corbyn.

bampots - i like the word and will have to use it more in conversation

 

[butchersapron]

In 1997 - 13.5 million people voted in a right wing labout govt. All of them socialists

In 2017 - 12.8 million people voted for a left-wing labour party led by a socialist - up by 3.5 million. None of these voters were socialists.

This is the world this person lives in.

 

[billy_bob]

And which way the Sun told people to vote.

Leave those commie bastards out of it!

 

[killer b]

I have always been in favour of the ordinary person having a good standard of living. Disposable income drives the economy.

You should vote Labour then, they're the only party who're offering anything like the programme you've outlined above.

 

[Sasaferrato]

maybe so, and if it offends i apologise

You're fine. I appreciated that there was no offence intended.