Change UK: Chuka Umunna resigns from Labour party and launches Independent Group

[cupid_stunt]

I really, really wouldn't read anything in to polling for a Party that doesn't exist yet.

Very true, these polls are only a snap-shot of the damage that COULD been done, nothing more.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't buy this talk of a 10 year plan or seriously setting up a party with all the hard work establishing then supporting an actual membership and infrastructure model would entail. This is a last throw of the dice to pressure all sides into a second referendum or something to stop brexit somehow - extension first probably. It's a pebble thrown in the lake from desperation. None of these cunts are sticking around long-term - and have no real intention to except maybe that leslie bloke who thinks he's the king across the water for some reason.

 

[Teaboy]

The outcome of Brexit is going to be such a washing machine for all the parties that current poles are meaningless for anyone trying to look ahead to a future GE.

Just looking at hard brexit alone that could just as easily collapse support for the tories for a decade or if it turns out not as bad as predictions (short term anyway) the tories could smash the next GE on a wave of patriotism.

Lord knows for all the other myriad of brexit outcomes.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I'd take any polls with a pinch of salt.

IIRC the 80s SDP got over 50% in some opinion polls just after they launched but in real elections they of course got nothing like it.

Yep, they were polling that high, then the Falklands happened, and at the 1983 GE the SDP/Lib only got just over 25%, and only 23 MPs.

 

[Argonia]

Yep, they were polling that high, then the Falklands happened, and at the 1983 GE the SDP/Lib only got just over 25%, and only 23 MPs.

Yes but the SDP-Lib Alliance got 7,780,949 votes compared to Labour's 8,456,934 which isn't actually all that far off. Electoral system in action again. I wonder if the tiggers will be pro-PR.

1983 United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia

 

[Shechemite]

. I wonder if the tiggers will be pro-PR.

Well it would double their policy positions

 

[belboid]

And if the lefty politicos aren’t fussed about AS you can’t rrally expect Jews to refuse to use ‘right wing sources’.

The large majority of the left, ime, agrees that there is an issue with AS, but disagree with that it means the labour party is riddled with it, as the right claim. There have been many attempts by the left to put forward solutions. But they are dismissed if they don't accept the premise that Labour is riddled with antisemitism. Even when coming from jews, they are dismissed (as one was this morning, on Good Morning Britain) as 'self-hating jews'. What a load of reactionary shite. It's almost as if it were a game deliberately designed to be unwinnable.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Yes but the SDP-Lib Alliance got 7,780,949 votes compared to Labour's 8,456,934 which isn't actually all that far off. Electoral system in action again. I wonder if the tiggers will be pro-PR.

1983 United Kingdom general election - Wikipedia

Yep, and whilst the Alliance didn't make great gains, they seriously damaged Labour.

 

[Shechemite]

The large majority of the left, ime, agrees that there is an issue with AS, but disagree with that it means the labour party is riddled with it, as the right claim. There have been many attempts by the left to put forward solutions. But they are dismissed if they don't accept the premise that Labour is riddled with antisemitism. Even when coming from jews, they are dismissed (as one was this morning, on Good Morning Britain) as 'self-hating jews'. What a load of reactionary shite. It's almost as if it were a game deliberately designed to be unwinnable.

Er the ‘self hating jew’ comment was condemned by the same people you moan about.

 

[two sheds]

And if the lefty politicos aren’t fussed about AS you can’t rrally expect Jews to refuse to use ‘right wing sources’.

That you still are clinging to his mindset even though it’s damaging the LP is just bizarre

Do you agree that there has been bias in the media and elsewhere about AS within labour?

Flawed reporting on antisemitism claims against the Labour party | Letter

This report and the letter highlighting it was pretty well ignored.

 

[newbie]

As I read through the last page I was thinking this has a life expectancy of about a month. It's designed for immediate impact on the Brexit mess. They've convinced themselves nothing else matters.

then I got to the bottom and found butchers had said the same thing.

 

[Shechemite]

Do you agree that there has been bias in the media and elsewhere about AS within labour?

Flawed reporting on antisemitism claims against the Labour party | Letter

This report and the letter highlighting it was pretty well ignored.

Who gives a fuck if ‘the media’ are mean to labour? You take that as a given surely?

That the report was ‘ignored’ may also be linked to the fact it wasn’t peer reviewed, and wasn’t (as the author initially claimed) an official birkbeck report

 

[killer b]

The large majority of the left, ime, agrees that there is an issue with AS, but disagree with that it means the labour party is riddled with it, as the right claim. There have been many attempts by the left to put forward solutions. But they are dismissed if they don't accept the premise that Labour is riddled with antisemitism. Even when coming from jews, they are dismissed (as one was this morning, on Good Morning Britain) as 'self-hating jews'. What a load of reactionary shite. It's almost as if it were a game deliberately designed to be unwinnable.

The self hating Michael Segalov has a decent article about Labour AS in the Graun this morning.

Here's how Labour can tackle antisemitism: a massive overhaul | Michael Segalov

 

[belboid]

The self hating Michael Segalov has a decent article about Labour AS in the Graun this morning.

Here's how Labour can tackle antisemitism: a massive overhaul | Michael Segalov

Yup, that is a really good piece

 

[belboid]

Er the ‘self hating jew’ comment was condemned by the same people you moan about.

and yet, you have done almst exactly the same thing

But Rosen is Jewish. And never before has any Jewish person/person with a Jewish background had a problematic attitude to antisemitism.

IDPol eh?

 

[killer b]

He isn't doing the same thing there at all.

 

[Shechemite]

and yet, you have done almst exactly the same thing

Lol you utter shitstain.

 

[belboid]

He isn't doing the same thing there at all.

Really? How so? It's two people saying a jewish persons experience of antisemitism and how to deal with it isn't valid, so how's it different?

 

[Shechemite]

The self hating Michael Segalov has a decent article about Labour AS in the Graun this morning.

Here's how Labour can tackle antisemitism: a massive overhaul | Michael Segalov

And has been attacked by corbynistas for doing so. As were Momentum for writing pieces on labour AS.

 

[killer b]

And has been attacked by corbynistas for doing so. As were Momentum for writing pieces on labour AS.

I know?

 

[Shechemite]

Really? How so? It's two people saying a jewish persons experience of antisemitism and how to deal with it isn't valid, so how's it different?

Given that I er didnt say that, and given that crap you and others have said to/about me for my views on antisemtism and how it should be dealt, you really are something else.

 

[Shechemite]

I know?

What?

 

[belboid]

And has been attacked by corbynistas for doing so. As were Momentum for writing pieces on labour AS.

lol, so Momentum and Segalov aren't 'corbynistas'? That'll be news to them. You are taking a tiny number of individuals and are somehow believing them to be 'the left' even when you are quoting others on the left who are actively disagreeing with them.

 

[belboid]

Given that I er didnt say that, and given that crap you and others have said to/about me for my views on antisemtism and how it should be dealt, you really are something else.

So Rosen's 'problematic' opinion (and this was in a part of the thread when you seemed to be calling for him to be no-platformed for anti-semitism) is perfectly valid not problematic then?

 

[Shechemite]

lol, so Momentum and Segalov aren't 'corbynistas'? That'll be news to them. You are taking a tiny number of individuals and are somehow believing them to be 'the left' even when you are quoting others on the left who are actively disagreeing with them.

There’s more than two corbynistas belboid. HTH.

When labour left types indicate that AS is an issue they are attacked for ‘giving into the smears’ or some other crap.

 

[Shechemite]

So Rosen's 'problematic' opinion (and this was in a part of the thread when you seemed to be calling for him to be no-platformed for anti-semitism) is perfectly valid not problematic then?

I said he doesn’t get a free pass on AS because he’s jewish.

I stated that the allegation against him was that he was enabling (or whatever it was) AS (as is in the tweet itself).

Y’know, my approach to combatting antisemtism involves putting my energy into er combatting it (something which has come at considerable cost), not into angrily denouncing those who campaign against AS, or lying about what people have said.

Are you going to apologise for claiming my comment is akin to calling someone a ‘self hating jew’?

 

[belboid]

There’s more than two corbynistas belboid. HTH.

When labour left types indicate that AS is an issue they are attacked for ‘giving into the smears’ or some other crap.

Yes dear, that was my point./ But you then repeat the old rightwing line that it is THE labour left who is riddled with this AS. We have seen it repeatedly over the last few days how it is Momentum who have taken over the party and which is riddled with AS. And, yet, it is Momentum who are, quite rightly, supporting these anti-AS campaigns. They are slagged off by a small minority of the left within that left. So it is just untrue to say 'the left' ignore it. What you mean is 'they dont answer it the way I want them to' which is rather different.

 

[belboid]

I said he doesn’t get a free pass on AS because he’s jewish.

No you didn't. You were defending Euan Philips trying to get Rosen no-platformed for anti-semitism.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I wonder if the tiggers will be pro-PR.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if they all suddenly became deeply invested in this issue despite having shown no interest in it whatsoever back when FPTP was still working in their favour.

 

[Shechemite]

Yes dear, that was my point./ But you then repeat the old rightwing line that it is THE labour left who is riddled with this AS. We have seen it repeatedly over the last few days how it is Momentum who have taken over the party and which is riddled with AS. And, yet, it is Momentum who are, quite rightly, supporting these anti-AS campaigns. They are slagged off by a small minority of the left within that left. So it is just untrue to say 'the left' ignore it. What you mean is 'they dont answer it the way I want them to' which is rather different.

When did I say riddled?