Celebrity Big Brother 2007

[newbie]

Sex is an inherent natural part of all animal life; you can legislate all you like, but it will never go away. Racism and bullying are choices, they aren't required for the continuation of human life. We can choose not to support them.

sure, but that won't make them go away. Nor will legislation or Big Brother making rules.


I'd also add that my parents would say that sex may be natural but it's personal and should never be part of 'entertainment'. Their views, like yours or mine, are entirely reasonable. I don't think they'd try to stop sex being broadcast, they just won't watch it. You appear to want to stop what you find offensive being broadcast.

racism and bullying exist, and must be stopped.

how? sorry, but that strikes me as fanciful.

The BB represented reality has done nothing to prevent them - and C4s failure to act actually says we have only weak control of such situations. Furthermore, this wasn't just a reported situation, it was a created one, created by C4 and its agents. They are ultimately culpable.

they created a pressure cooker situation, as they've done numerous times before. The actual dynamics were created by the 4 main individuals involved.

I want to respond there, but I am hesitant to widen the discussion.

yes, you're right

What do you think should be done as regards this CBB incident, and do you feel the affair has been competently managed by C4 and Endemol? If you do, fine, I disagree; if you don't, then what recourse do people have to ensure better crisis management in future?

Competently managed? Sorry, it's a gameshow. It didn't need managing. I'm impressed that both Endemol management and the C4 board have held their nerve in the face of the storm. Good on 'em.

Is it right that the media is allowed to chase ads spending and viewing figures through these grotesque depictions of reality with no one regulating them to ensure they do so responsibly?

Can you define "responsibly" in such a way that it covers what you see as the problem areas and yet leaves scope for programmes which might offend others but not offend you?

 

[rocketman]

sure, but that won't make them go away. Nor will legislation or Big Brother making rules.

I'm done for a bit, I will come to this at some point in next few hours/tomorrow. I'm tired out of arguing with racists from some white power group on another board. Not saying you are one, by the way, just out of brain cells now.

I came across this, which I thought would be worth sharing.

Rapper Asoka after hearing about what had happened on the "Big Brother" show, wrote a song, "Watch your Mouth", a direct attack on the actions of the three racist celebrites.

You can get it here

Anyway, thought it may interest some of you.

 

[newbie]

Fine, obviously you value the freedom of large corporations to profit from exploitative formats above all. I'd have a lot more time for your argument if it was actually worth having, the idea we live in a 'free' media world is just ludicrous, no public access TV for one thing, no genuine community stations, no real access to the airwaves for you and I

But that's just fine, because we can watch a bit of bullying therefore we are free.

where on earth have I ever said any of those things or indeed anything along those lines? You're extrapolating wildly.

<Actually, what makes BB different from the vast majority of TV is that the producers cannot have full control: whatever their editing skills, what actually happens is determined by the behaviour of the housemates and the reactions of the viewers, filtered through realtime threads like this across the internet. The producers may be able to influence, but they can't control, and that makes it much more interesting than most tv. IMO.>

Now, to get back to the point - I presume you are familiar with notion of anti discriminatory legislation

once again, what laws do you think have been broken?

[/QUOTE]what would you say if we transposed Shilpa and the others to say a textile mill? Would you say 'oh, it's fine for the management to allow this to happen, no it's entirely acceptable for the supervisor not to intervene, absolutely' would you approve if a group of people stood round everyday on the edge of the canteen to watch the bullying take place - would you fuck I hope. So why, just because it's on telly is it suddenly fine?[/QUOTE]

this isn't real life you know. It's a gameshow, and when it's finished the slebs will trouser tens of grand, will sell their stories and endorsements for hundreds of grand. How you can try to compare that to bullying at work is beyond me.

People who are bullied at work need protection. These are slebs playing a game. That they can leave at any time isn't really the point, but it is a fact.

My decency threshhold is not about what I see for the 6545325th time, it's about the process, the method, the thinking behind the programme which i find insiduous - I can't comment on what I saw because I DIDN'T SEE IT.

we're talking about this gameshow, which I, at any rate, have been watching. Maybe the fact that this is the umpteenth series I've watched means I see it differently from you and all the other commentators for whom what happens on BB is such a problem? This series isn't particularly unusual, you know, except that it's captured the headlines a bit more than previously. Contestants behave badly, some are loud and aggressive, some are snide, some backstab, some lie.

They are you, they are me, they are us. Even the slebs, which is weird Or they're people whose behaviour is utterly remote from our own. Some of us watch because we're fascinated by it.

You don't like. fair enough, don't watch it. There's only a week left anyway.

I HAVN'T ACTUALLY BEEN OFFENDED BY JADE OR ANYONE ELSE - What I DO find offensive is that some people seem to think television and BB is above the principle we apply to our own everyday lives and that by questioning the morality of it, somehow I am being sanctimonious or censorial.

it's not everyday life, it's a gameshow, played by consenting adults for the entertainment of those people who choose to watch it.

 

[Orang Utan]

Channel 4 appears to be in crisis - they even refused to find someone to interview on C4's own flagship news programme.

They haven't commented all week, which I think is disgraceful, esp Luke Johnson appearing on the radio and referring any question to his previous statement. It shows a shocking lack of judgment and sensitivity and reminds me of how shit he was dealing with his own temper when he went and worked in one of his own restaurants for, shock horror, a reality TV programme. Oh the irony.

 

[newbie]

IRapper Asoka after hearing about what had happened on the "Big Brother" show, wrote a song, "Watch your Mouth", a direct attack on the actions of the three racist celebrites.

You can get it here

Anyway, thought it may interest some of you.

I've no idea who Rapper Asoka is, but s/he's more likely to influence how people behave than Endemol management telling someone off.

no worries, catch you next time

 

[8ball]

Did Jade say something racist that I missed?

 

[exosculate]

Did Jade say something racist that I missed?

She said she had a preference for cue balls.

 

[8ball]

She said she had a preference for cue balls.

Lost me there.

Sure it makes sense in some context

 

[Chairman Meow]

I'm going to have nightmares about Jack's skinny shaven cock - where's that phone number to complain? My eyes!

 

[aurora green]

I'm going to have nightmares about Jack's skinny shaven cock - where's that phone number to complain? My eyes!

well I laughed...

 

[Chairman Meow]

well I laughed...

So did I. I'm still mentally scared though.

 

[Chairman Meow]

So did I. I'm still mentally scared though.

Scarred and scared.

 

[Orang Utan]

I spent a little quality time today looking at Channel 4's broadcasting license and the 2003 Communications act.

Interestingly, Ch4's broadcasting license requires the channel to spend 25 per cent of its programming budget on independently produced content.

What I am curious about - and don't yet know - is if the 10 per cent of Channel 4's entire programming budget the channel has agreed to pay Endemol over the next few years qualifies as part of that commitment to independent content, as Endemol is independent of Channel 4.

Since that requirement was put in place to protect cultural diversity, spending two fifths of the cash on Big Brother could arguably be challenged as going against that commitment to diversity. But then again, I don't know what I'm talking about on this yet, as I don't know where in the budget Ch4 places this spending, it's possible the BB money is a separate category and that 25 per cent of the budget continues to go to generate independent content other than Big Brother.

Many have noted the way BB changed a few years back. I'd like to draw attention to the 2003 Communications Bill, which removed a restriction on UK broadcasters that they "do not offend good taste or decency  or offend public feeling", which had existed as a restriction since 1954. I suspect the change in BB after 2003 may have reflected the removal of that limitation.

I'm not an expert on this, and these points I am making could be misquoted or misconstrued - so don't take them as gospel, as I am not saying they are gospel. But I don't buy the 'it's just entertainment' line on these matters, nor do I accept the defence that the channel can get away with its actions because it had the effect of 'sparking debate'. That way live executions lie. So I'm looking at the law.

For MPs, the issue may be to revise the communictions bill to reintroduce the 'offend public feeling' clause in future, or some variant of that which has the effect of protecting the public - and future housemates - from such excesses.

While I'm generally no fan of censorship, I do believe that with freedom comes responsibility, and in this case a bunch of well-heeled corporate executives are prostituting freedom for profit without showing responsibility.

I'm posting this in hope that someone out there is an expert on these things, and can offer some more tangible information as regards where in the law or in the Channel 4 charter the broadcaster may have made a serious error of judgement.

I wish I knew more. Though I always get their report, I've never read it, but 10% sounds egregiously inaccurate to me from my limited knowledge. I have, however, feel that C4 have failed in their remit on many occasion, but not on this occasion at all. In fact, if they've succeeded in getting the nation talking about important issues, they've done their job very well.

 

[8ball]

Scarred and scared.

Ah.

 

[rocketman]

I wish I knew more. Though I always get their report, I've never read it, but 10% sounds egregiously inaccurate to me from my limited knowledge. I have, however, feel that C4 have failed in their remit on many occasion, but not on this occasion at all. In fact, if they've succeeded in getting the nation talking about important issues, they've done their job very well.

10 per cent figure cited here
Source; Telegraph business pages.

The latter argument needs revising to protect against the consequences of a live rape or execution being broadcast on TV, using the offered justification that "if they succeed in getting the nation taling about..." then it was worthwhile. Examining such issues is what drama is for, where no one gets hurt really. So too should bullying and racism be - topics for drama, I feel.

 

[rocketman]

Newbie,

I haven't responded to everything you said Newbie, but part of what I'd like to say in response to your previous is captured in the latter past of my response to Orang Utan, above.

 

[Orangesanlemons]

They haven't commented all week, which I think is disgraceful, esp Luke Johnson appearing on the radio and referring any question to his previous statement. It shows a shocking lack of judgment and sensitivity and reminds me of how shit he was dealing with his own temper when he went and worked in one of his own restaurants for, shock horror, a reality TV programme. Oh the irony.

It was a back-to-the-floor thing at Belgo, no? One of the funniest shows I've seen in my life. The man's a bell-end of the highest order and you have my deepest sympathies in having to work for the man. Ironically he'd be awesome in CBB, better than Galloway and Barrymore combined imho.

 

[newbie]

Drama is contrived, someone is trying to manufacture an audience response. Usually someone from the metropolitan arts elite with friends in the right places and an eye on the next commission. It's the epitomy of one-to-many communication. BB isn't that.

btw, who has been "hurt really"?

 

[rocketman]

Drama is contrived, someone is trying to manufacture an audience response. Usually someone from the metropolitan arts elite with friends in the right places and an eye on the next commission. It's the epitomy of one-to-many communication. BB isn't that.

btw, who has been "hurt really"?

So are you saying you would tolerate real-life rape or murder on TV, because it is not contrived drama?

Or would you like to modify your response so as to avoid being misunderstood?

I assume this is where you drop in the 'consent' argument, right?

 

[clandestino]

I didn't see the show today. What happened?

The last I saw, Cleo was trying to make Dirk crack, and being quite nasty in the process.

 

[newbie]

I repeat, who has been "hurt really"?

What's the point of creating circumstances that haven't happened in order to get upset about them? This isn't about murder. This is about a bunch of people in a gameshow having an argument. nothing more.

 

[tangerinedream]

I repeat, who has been "hurt really"?

What's the point of creating circumstances that haven't happened in order to get upset about them? This isn't about murder. This is about a bunch of people in a gameshow having an argument. nothing more.

but would you tolerate if someone was raped or murdered?

If the outburst was more violent, would that have been ok? If there had been physical intimidation would that be ok? - If someone had brandished a knife would that be ok? Where is the line? Where is your moral line? Why have you the right to draw it where you do?

What's the point of creating circumstances that haven't happened? It's called foresight and it's a useful tool, without it, all we could ever do is react and firefight after the event.

 

[Orangesanlemons]

Righto, the last few pages have provided some genuinely interesting reading (much better than all that fighting and posturing during the height of Jade-gate) but I'd like to lower the tone a little and talk about the runners and riders for a bit:

* Shilpa. Currently trading at 1.43 which seems absurd until you look at the competition. Coped with the bullying situation in a very dignified manner, but has since made too many steps towards the coven, almost to the point where she thinks she may be one of the girls now. This may be her fatal weakness, especially if she gets suckered into picking on Dirk. Still the one to beat, although she has the 'curse' to deal with yet.

* Jermaine. 6.8 at the moment, second fave to Shilpa and the only other HM to fully keep their dignity and sense of self intact. Don't write off Jermaine yet. On the debit side he doesn't exactly DO much, and looks tired most of the time these days.

* Ian. 17.5 and WAY out there in the third fave position. Had his potential moment and failed to take it. Could have won during the bullying saga but sat on the fence - a nice guy but too scared of confrontation to win.

* Dirk. 19.0 and still in with a chance imo depending on how he reacts to being the new target of the bullies. Wants to go, doesn't care about winning and patently hates every minute of it - just like Jack Dee. Old and tired, will be up for nomination, but still has just a little of the old Face magic.

* Cleo. 21.0 oh dear oh dear oh dear. What on EARTH was she thinking? The early high-flyer, we all loved her, she then joined the coven, crashed and burned. Who knew she would be quite so weird and bitter? Ah well, that's the thing about BB - everyone gets found out in the end...

* Any other (Jack). 85.0 but was 150.0 earlier until I backed him down. Jack could go far here people, mark my words. SURE, he's a nasty little bigot, a nonentity who seems happy to take Jade's money, spaff over her once in a while and keep his mouth shut until talked to, BUT! He's reasonably well-liked in the house, has had the sense to keep out of trouble since Jade left, is the closest thing left to eye-candy for the ladies and may well be showing a bit of cult-hero status in the last few days - who else has the momentum? I can't say I like him, I'm not saying he'll win, but there's no way he's a 100-1 shot in this field.

* Jo. 190.0 no-hoper. The love-child of Pat Butcher and Tony Soprano, even her SS-Club ex-bandmates seem to be washing their hands of her. Has the eyes of a genuine sociopath, likes puppies, fags and JD in that order - not enough to win these days. Unpleasant.

* Danielle. 200.0 not bloody likely. The rank outsider due to being a rather nasty little racist (albeit quite an attractive one). A post-BB gig in 'Prussian Blue' beckons when Teddy dumps her. Has calmed down a little since Jade left but it's too little too late baby...

So in conclusion Everyone thinks Shilpa will win. There's a lot of talk about BB and Endemol wanting her to win to protect the future of the show blah blah blah but to be honest as long as she gets through to the final night and one of the coven doesn't win (fat chance) it's not exactly their problem - as ever, YOU decide.

 

[newbie]

there are outstanding questions and I'd appreciate answers. please, be specific,

What laws have been broken?
who has been hurt?

but would you tolerate if someone was raped or murdered?

of course not, but that hasn't happened and never was about to happen.

what did happen was that some well paid entertainers had an argument on tv.

 

[exosculate]

Oranges what is the curse? I have an idea but I'm not sure.

I fancy Jermaine to win tbh. Shilpa will begin to aggravate people too much in the final week.

 

[Orangesanlemons]

Oranges what is the curse? I have an idea but I'm not sure.

I fancy Jermaine to win tbh. Shilpa will begin to aggravate people too much in the final week.

"The curse" is much-discused in reality betting circles and concerns (not to put too fine a point on it) the poor showing of ethnic minority contestants in reality tv shows dictated by the public vote - particularly female contestants. Are some of those who vote ever-so-slightly racist or have the candidates (Narinder say, or Mel/Makosi/Ama/Javine etc etc) been a little bit rubbish? It's a bit of both imo, but there's little doubt that Shilpa is the best chance yet for a non-white BB winner (who isn't a chainsmoking Portugeezer).

Either way, Leonna broke the curse recently on that singing thing (albeit against a talent and charisma vacuum called Ray), so perhaps it doesn't have the power it once did.

 

[exosculate]

"The curse" is much-discused in reality betting circles and concerns (not to put too fine a point on it) the poor showing of ethnic minority contestants in reality tv shows dictated by the public vote - particularly female contestants. Are some of those who vote ever-so-slightly racist or have the candidates (Narinder say, or Mel/Makosi/Ama/Javine etc etc) been a little bit rubbish? It's a bit of both imo, but there's little doubt that Shilpa is the best chance yet for a non-white BB winner (who isn't a chainsmoking Portugeezer).

Either way, Leonna broke the curse recently on that singing thing (albeit against a talent and charisma vacuum called Ray), so perhaps it doesn't have the power it once did.

I thought that's what you meant. i think Jermaine will break the BB curse in that case then.

I never watched the other prog, but I did hear that Leonna was already in the business, so I'm not sure she counts as a genuine contestant anyway.

 

[Orangesanlemons]

I thought that's what you meant. i think Jermaine will break the BB curse in that case then.

I never watched the other prog, but I did hear that Leonna was already in the business, so I'm not sure she counts as a genuine contestant anyway.

I'd like Jermaine to win (I laid Shilpa before Jade declared war on India and all hell broke loose, oh well) and I think if there were a few more weeks to go the Shilpa train would derail quite badly. As it is, well, it's hard to see who can stop her. She's a game girl and reacted to the covens' bullying with dignity and patience. However, she hasn't really been tested yet, and only polled 82% against the universally despised Jade, so who can say? Would she beat Dirk in a neg eviction vote? I'm still not convinced she's a 1.41 shot, even in a weak field. The British voting public do seem to dislike feeling that they 'should' vote for someone. Dirk/Jermaine/Jack all still reasonably priced imo...

 

[tekla]

behaviour in BB has transgressed the laws of the nation

If this is true why haven't collars been fingered? Answer: it's not true. Should some silly copper attempt to make a case the CPS would decline to prosecute, and privately criticise the cops stupid enough to have sent them a file.

 

[Wide Eyed Angel]

I'm going to have nightmares about Jack's skinny shaven cock - where's that phone number to complain? My eyes!

Is that what Jack did to try and make Big Brother laugh? Get his cock out? I caught some of the repeat this morning but being 8am not the time for naked man-ness!