Cecil, famous Lion from Zimbabwe shot dead by Dentist from Minnesota for $55k

[tim]

Humans evolved eating meat. Animals eat other animals. That's just the way it works. That said, I think it's good if us humans try to cut back on meat (I try to) and give consideration to animal welfare in the food supply. I'd welcome any policies that push in this direction.

It's the idea that this guy and others of his ilk kill needlessly and purely for fun that offends.

If we evolved eating meat, then we evolved as hunters, following your logic, surely hunting is just a thing that we do, our desire to hunt being innate. Surely, that's just the way it works. The dentist is programmed to kill, so he does, even though he doesn't need to. You are programmed to eat meat, so you do, even though you don't need to.

How can consuming slaughtered animals, be acceptable but slaughtering animals not be.

Also isn't the "I eat meat, but not as much as I could do, and I worry about factory farming whilst I'm digesting my English breakfast" a load of wishy-washy liberal bollocks? Either eat meat or refrain from eating meat.

 

[weltweit]

If we evolved eating meat, then we evolved as hunters, following your logic, surely hunting is just a thing that we do, our desire to hunt being innate. Surely, that's just the way it works.

We evolved from hunters into farmers, in the main. But hunting and farming for food are not the same as trophy hunting. Hunting and farming for food the animal is not wasted, indeed in many cases nearly all of the cow is used, for meat, or for leather. Trophy hunting is only interested in the mounted head and in the case of Cecil the lion, the pelt, the rest of the animal is wasted.

The dentist is programmed to kill, so he does, even though he doesn't need to. You are programmed to eat meat, so you do, even though you don't need to.

I very much doubt the dentist is programmed to do much actually. He has taken up hunting, with a bow, and has travelled far and wide killing animals for his own enjoyment, but predominantly humans farm meat these days, trophy hunting is an anachronism.

How can consuming slaughtered animals, be acceptable but slaughtering animals not be.

Meat is a foodstuff, we have to eat to live and a lot of the worlds human population eat meat. In the UK, slaughtering animals is a quick efficient process, nothing like leaving an animal to struggle along injured for 40 hours until you put it out of its misery as was the case with Cecil.

 

[tim]

We may slaughter animals humanely in the UK, but most of the meat we eat is not raised in humane conditions. With regard to the absurdly named Cecil, had the dentist killed him more efficiently would that have made the act more acceptable?

 

[weltweit]

We may slaughter animals humanely in the UK, but most of the meat we eat is not raised in humane conditions.

I can disagree with the massed rearing of chicken AND disagree with the trophy hunting of lions in Africa.

 

[tim]

I can disagree with the massed rearing of chicken AND disagree with the trophy hunting of lions in Africa.

But you can arouse more spurious outrage by focussing on the former rather than the latter.

Personally, as a consumer of massed reared chickens it would seem hypocritical to me to join in this sentimentalised outrage over one lion. I would say the same applies to anyone who ignorant of the provenance of the meat eggs and dairy products that they consume.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

With regard to the absurdly named Cecil,

What would you have named him?

 

[weltweit]

But you can arouse more spurious outrage by focussing on the former rather than the latter.

Are you sure you don't mean vice versa?
I have seen plenty of outrage about both.

Personally, as a consumer of massed reared chickens it would seem hypocritical to me to join in this sentimentalised outrage over one lion. I would say the same applies to anyone who ignorant of the provenance of the meat eggs and dairy products that they consume.

I don't eat chicken much and the outrage over Cecil the lion is emblematic of disquiet over trophy hunting in general, the fact that a named lion, and a favourite of tourists, was killed in this way has provided a focal point for people's disgust at the way wildlife is treated in Africa. I don't find it at all hypocritical to have feelings about it. I have also expressed distaste with factory chicken farming.

 

[chilango]

Speaking of injustice suffered by fellow human beings, "we" should not be taking holidays of any description in Mugabe's oppressive state that is Zimbabwe. That should
also be a crime.

"We" generally are not.

I spent a Summer on holiday in Zimbabwe a few years back and foreign tourists were nowhere to be seen (aside from a handful at Vic Falls).

I suppose I should be a little offended at the implication that by visiting I somehow helped prop up the Mugabe regime. However, aside from the visa fees, my conscience is pretty clear on this.

 

[Belushi]

A mate went on holiday there with his Zimbabwean wife, got arrested eight times but let off straight away after paying a 'on the spot fine'

 

[chilango]

A mate went on holiday there with his Zimbabwean wife, got arrested eight times but let off straight away after paying a 'on the spot fine'

I remember one occasion whilst there I was sat in a car with a Zimbabwean friend who flat out refused to at an "on the spot fine" and harangued the poor cop about the regime's waste of money until the cop scurried away tail between his legs...

 

[chilango]

...and to return to the OP, the collapse in tourism in places like Hwange means that they are desperate enough for revenue to allow situations like this, and the absence of other tourists pursuing other more "wholesome" safaris leaves the field clear for guys like this.

 

[weltweit]

...and to return to the OP, the collapse in tourism in places like Hwange means that they are desperate enough for revenue to allow situations like this, and the absence of other tourists pursuing other more "wholesome" safaris leaves the field clear for guys like this.

Do you know why tourism in Hwange has collapsed? I don't know much about African tourism.

 

[chilango]

Do you know why tourism in Hwange has collapsed? I don't know much about African tourism.

Political and economic insecurity/instability in Zimbabwe. Their economy collapsed after hyper-inflation, currency abolished and worries about the Mugabe regime.

I visited an almost deserted Hwange. A handful of visitors, mainly Zimbaweans , with a tiny number of foreigners.

 

[Citizen66]

Is it any worse than spending that much or more on an expensive car? And would such an qct of slaugher be more acceptable in less straightened times?

I said it makes it stick in the craw, not that it makes it more unacceptable.

 

[tim]

Are you sure you don't mean vice versa?
I have seen plenty of outrage about both.


I don't eat chicken much and the outrage over Cecil the lion is emblematic of disquiet over trophy hunting in general, the fact that a named lion, and a favourite of tourists, was killed in this way has provided a focal point for people's disgust at the way wildlife is treated in Africa. I don't find it at all hypocritical to have feelings about it. I have also expressed distaste with factory chicken farming.

Yes, obviously vice-versa.

Wildlife, is treated in the same way in Africa as it is everywhere else. Some is hunted for food; some of it is used to attract tourists who either coo at it or kill it; some is erradicated because it is incompatible with efficient farming; and much is ignored because it's inedible unphotogenic and doesn't kill livestock of eat crops. The only difference I can see is that Africa has bigger wildlife than we do.

As I said before the rights and living conditions of the people of Africa should be of more concern than those of the animals.

If local people can exploit the animals around them using them to draw in either tourists or hunters who in turn help provide them with a decent standard of living then I see little to get worked up about the odd dead lion. Of course I doubt that the African tourist trade benefits those at the bottom in such a way, anymore than the grouse moors of Scotland and the North of England do the beaters.

 

[likesfish]

To some extend it does if properly managed tourists and hunters bring in cash need service industries to support them etc etc.
but cecil's hunt was illegal and not managed at all

 

[weltweit]

Political and economic insecurity/instability in Zimbabwe. Their economy collapsed after hyper-inflation, currency abolished and worries about the Mugabe regime.

Currency abolished sounds pretty terminal!

I visited an almost deserted Hwange. A handful of visitors, mainly Zimbaweans , with a tiny number of foreigners.

I suppose the local situation could have done for tourism in Zimbabwe, among the photographers I know a few go on African safari but I don't think any have gone to Zimbabwe.

 

[weltweit]

.. Wildlife, is treated in the same way in Africa as it is everywhere else. Some is hunted for food; some of it is used to attract tourists who either coo at it or kill it; some is erradicated because it is incompatible with efficient farming; and much is ignored because it's inedible unphotogenic and doesn't kill livestock of eat crops. The only difference I can see is that Africa has bigger wildlife than we do.

We have seen that to kill Cecil cost Palmer US$55,000 do you not agree that Cecil could have been worth a lot more than that to the local economy, over his life, in tourism and photography fees?

As I said before the rights and living conditions of the people of Africa should be of more concern than those of the animals.

Again I don't think it is necessary to side with one or the other. Can one not aim for both better conditions for the locals and wildlife?

If local people can exploit the animals around them using them to draw in either tourists or hunters who in turn help provide them with a decent standard of living then I see little to get worked up about the odd dead lion. Of course I doubt that the African tourist trade benefits those at the bottom in such a way, anymore than the grouse moors of Scotland and the North of England do the beaters.

But this death of Cecil is emblematic of the fact that wild populations of lions are at an all time low and are continuing to decline.

 

[weltweit]

WTF .. Can this be verified?

Heartbreak as Cecil the lion's brother is shot dead
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-08-01/heartbreak-as-cecil-the-lions-brother-is-shot-dead/

The brother of Cecil the lion was shot dead in Zimbabwe today.

The Zimbabwean Conservation Task Force said it was "absolutely heartbroken" by the news of Jericho's death.

Jericho was the next lion in the hierarchy and was said to be looking after Cecil's cubs after he was killed by US dentist Walter Palmer.

The Zimbabwean Conservation Task Force said on Facebook: "It is with huge disgust and sadness that we have just been informed that Jericho, Cecil's brother has been killed at 4pm today. We are absolutely heartbroken."

 

[wayward bob]

i'd heard that there was another lion shot on the r4 news tonight, but that it was a while back. maybe this is just a mis-translation of that story? <hopes>

 

[weltweit]

i'd heard that there was another lion shot on the r4 news tonight, but that it was a while back. maybe this is just a mis-translation of that story? <hopes>

The story seems to be all over twitter, but that doesn't mean it is true..

 

[wayward bob]

it wasn't my understanding that the two males in the pride were related in any way.

as an aside, tracking this latest turn i enjoyed this on cnn: "Cecil the lion probably never knew how beloved he was"

 

[weltweit]

There is some uncertainty regarding the lion called Jericho, he like Cecil was wearing a radio collar and apparently that collar may still be sending signals indicating movement. I suppose only the game wardens will be able to confirm what has or hasn't happened.

 

[LiamO]

anyone posted this yet?

 

[wayward bob]

i'm hoping this can be taken at face value:

"Team tracking his GPS have however claimed Jericho is 'alive and well' " (via dm)

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

I have a friend who works on a nature reserve not too far away. She's been in direct contact with someone from the Zimbabwe reserve, the collar was transmitting long after the Twitter rumour took hold. Signal disappeared for about 20 minutes so there is concern for Jericho, but it came back on and they're waiting for wardens to get visual confirmation.

 

[tim]

What would you have named him?

Nothing as I'm not in the habit of assigning names to wild animals. If I were I wouldn't name the poor beast after Cecil Rhodes. The man responsible for the colonisation of Zimbabwe and the century of brutal imperial rule that followed it.

 

[tim]

anyone posted this yet?

It has been posted before but, because the shooter is a proper toff and not an upstart nouveau riche dentist, people here get less worked up about it. Presumably, it's more acceptable for the upper classes to slaughter wildlife, because that's what they've always done.

Harry, of course, has also boasted about slaughtering Afghans while he was flying around their country in his helicopter. But, again that's what we expect his sort to do.

 

[DotCommunist]

, people here get less worked up about it. Presumably, it's more acceptable for the upper classes to slaughter wildlife, because that's what they've always done.

what a shame I've already discussed the attitudes of the british aristocracy on this thread, makes your point ring hollow I'm afraid.

 

[tim]

what a shame I've already discussed the attitudes of the british aristocracy on this thread, makes your point ring hollow I'm afraid.

Possibly, but it's well hidden amongst the ten pages of anthropomorphic sentimentality and absurd revenge fantasies.