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Canterbury Arms, Brixton to be turned into flats - planning application

Because some of their chains were removed?

Because they were shunted. Just as hundreds of thousands were shunted across America in the 1930's along Route 66 to the promised land of California. One day the capitalist class will be forced to drink the juice from the grapes of working class wrath. I'd like to serve it to them in their own poisoned chalice.
 
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Why do you think they moved here in the first place?
A far better chance of employment, combined with the very weak zloty meaning that even a fiver sent home would buy far more than if it was spent on relatives here. The unemployment situation's bad in the UK, but it was a lot worse in Poland about 8 years ago, even for highly qualified and educated people.
Because they were shunted.
Effectively, yes. the maths of it goes something like this: If you can endure 8-10 years in the UK, you'll be able to salt away enough money to buy your own house in Poland when you go back. Of course, that overlooks what often happens. In 8-10 years, you make new friends, get to like the place you've moved to, and end up deciding that much as your old place will always feel like home, there's no way that you can move back.
 
Do you think they would have moved out of their country and left their friends and family by choice, or do you think perhaps it may have been an economic imperative that was forced upon them?
I think many would have moved earlier if they had not been effectively chained there. The removal of those chains allowed people to move to find work. As Greebo says - many sent money back home, quite rapidly improving the economic situation there - even though it still has a long way to go. I work a lot with a hard nosed Pole who almost weeps when he talks about the overwhelming oppressiveness there before joining the EU, how pleased he was to be able to come here to earn money and how happy he is that his son can now choose to live in Poland and have a decent career - something that would not have been possible even 10 years ago.
 
I think many would have moved earlier if they had not been effectively chained there. The removal of those chains allowed people to move to find work. As Greebo says - many sent money back home, quite rapidly improving the economic situation there - even though it still has a long way to go. I work a lot with a hard nosed Pole who almost weeps when he talks about the overwhelming oppressiveness there before joining the EU, how pleased he was to be able to come here to earn money and how happy he is that his son can now choose to live in Poland and have a decent career - something that would not have been possible even 10 years ago.

Thatcher is often given credit for that while she set about waging war against the working class in this country. It didn't take long for the Poles to realise they weren't free, the misery they suffered was a direct result of economic restructuring, the shock doctrine of neo liberalism, the IMF, the World Bank and the cheerleaders of the Chicago School of Economics and Thatcher.
 
While the shock therapy following the collapse of the Communist regime was sever and unecessary the Polish economy was fucked long before then - in fact Solidarnosc and the events of 1989 were at least in part a reaction to the dire state of the economy.
 
While the shock therapy following the collapse of the Communist regime was sever and unecessary the Polish economy was fucked long before then - in fact Solidarnosc and the events of 1989 were at least in part a reaction to the dire state of the economy.
One of my best mates at school was a Solidarinosc supporting Pole who insisted on wearing his badge every day despite regularly having it confiscated (no religious or political kit - etc..). He was livid about authoritarianism in the The People's Republic of Poland and the government's violent and economic oppression of people, his friends, his family. I'm not going to pretend that I know much about it - but his fierce and sincere support has left a permanent impression.
 
To be fair - they have a responsibility to not waste money. They will have seen countless applications turned down at committee and overturned at appeal. A planner friend of mine told me it costs around £15K every time a basic appeal is lost. So if the advice from planning is "we'd love to keep it but we have absolutely no argument in law to protect it" it is nothing but political posturing at the tax payers expense to object. I'm not a labour fan - but the Lib Dems have nothing to lose by objecting and plenty to gain by being seen to do so.

I thought Tufty mentioned them all saying it was regrettable? If all four had objected it would have gone to appeal and cost a load of cash, despite having been strongly advised by experts that in planning terms it is a no hoper. Taking a stance would be fun for an expensive moment or two.
There has been pretty limited "outrage" from the public, IMO.

Tufty were many members of the public there for that particular item?

Rushy, you’re absolutely right. They all made various noises asking whether it was possible to vote against demolition, particularly the male councillor, whose names I forgot. The two women both criticised the proposed building; both wanted to keep the Canterbury Arms, but the planners said, by law, it wasn’t possible as the pub could be demolished / changed into a Tesco’s perfectly legally without planning permission, and this negated my counter-arguments about their other policies. There were about 20 or so members of the public there for the Canterbury Arms (they had a show of hands at the start, that’s how I know).
 
One of my best mates at school was a Solidarinosc supporting Pole who insisted on wearing his badge every day despite regularly having it confiscated (no religious or political kit - etc..). He was livid about authoritarianism in the The People's Republic of Poland and the government's violent and economic oppression of people, his friends, his family. I'm not going to pretend that I know much about it - but his fierce and sincere support has left a permanent impression.

One of my mates was an officer in the military coup :D
 
I feel for the staff at Lambeth council (and to an extent the councillors). They may feel genuinely that the Canterbury shouldn't go, but in many ways their hands are tied.

Similarly, with the plans for Cressingham Gardens (which I'm very much against) the Council is in a cleft stick - their funding from Government has gone south, they desperately need money to invest in their housing - and at the same time the value of the land presents them with a potential opportunity to be able to do it. I don't know what they should do - just hope they can find a solution that keeps the residents in their homes while protecting what is an outstanding piece of social housing architecture.

The "solution" is a solution to an invented problem, though. I've lived here 17 years, and apart from 2 rows of flats at the bottom of the estate that have been pretty much devastated by a decade of inattention from the council, plus root impingement, subsidence and flooding (those three things being tied together), most of the rest of the supposedly desperately-needed repairs are superficial.
Lambeth have basically decided that what worked at Myatt's Fields will work here - the sell off of the 4 or so acres of open greenery on the estate, plus the demolition of the flats mentioned above, and a winnowing of the other properties on the estate (I can almost guarantee that the properties found most in need of repair by the current independent survey will miraculously cluster nearest to the estate's green spaces), and that from the sell-off money, the council will bank money, rather than reinvest it in the estate.

It's not the way to do things, unless you want to start a mini-class war on the estates that are victimised. me, I don't mind class war, but I don't expect that either the council or the (inevitably-private) new residents will be happy about it.
 
Not sure that is the the case with, for example, the half million Poles who have settled here since 2001.

To some degree it is.
There's a domino effect still going on in eastern and central Europe, so that Poland for example, had a wave of Ukrainian migration concomitant with Poland's own wave of emigration to the UK, and this has also been the case for other states. Emigration to a richer country causes a "pull" factor on immigration from poorer countries.
 
To some degree it is.
There's a domino effect still going on in eastern and central Europe, so that Poland for example, had a wave of Ukrainian migration concomitant with Poland's own wave of emigration to the UK, and this has also been the case for other states. Emigration to a richer country causes a "pull" factor on immigration from poorer countries.

It doesn't really worry me why or how they get here. Again, good luck to them. The problem is that we didn't plan the housing and schools etc to deal with it.
 
It doesn't really worry me why or how they get here. Again, good luck to them. The problem is that we didn't plan the housing and schools etc to deal with it.

Politics got in the way, as far as school places are concerned. It used to be that LEAs were obligated to keep an over-supply of places, and to keep schools "mothballed" so that they could be conveniently put back into use if/when necessary. The trend of "selling off the family silver" started by the Tories put an end to that, hence the farrago with the Dick Shepard site being demolished, and G-d knows how many secondary and primary school sites in London being converted into swish "apartments".
The same was the original intent with social housing - keep a certain amount of slack in the stock to soak up demographic change - but again that was broken, this time by changes to borrowing imposed on local authorities (followed quickly by the legislation barring local authorities from developing medium to large-scale social housing), and to the original "Right to Buy" legislation.
 
Politics got in the way, as far as school places are concerned. It used to be that LEAs were obligated to keep an over-supply of places, and to keep schools "mothballed" so that they could be conveniently put back into use if/when necessary. The trend of "selling off the family silver" started by the Tories put an end to that, hence the farrago with the Dick Shepard site being demolished, and G-d knows how many secondary and primary school sites in London being converted into swish "apartments".
The same was the original intent with social housing - keep a certain amount of slack in the stock to soak up demographic change - but again that was broken, this time by changes to borrowing imposed on local authorities (followed quickly by the legislation barring local authorities from developing medium to large-scale social housing), and to the original "Right to Buy" legislation.

Bad decisions informed by the fact the school-age population in inner London was, if anything, falling. Now it is soaring.
 
Bad decisions informed by the fact the school-age population in inner London was, if anything, falling. Now it is soaring.

Inaccurate. Sure it was waning then, but central and local government were both warned about the likelihood of demographic change - it was part of the reason for mothballing provision - and yet local authorities continued (and continue) to sell off sites even in the face of that change. Dick Shepard and other schools were sold after it became statistically obvious that "internal migration" within an expanded EU would have an effect (notwithstanding the new Labour stupidity about "3,000 Poles"). In the part of S.E. Kent that my sister lives in, a primary school site was sold off for housing despite there being a negative balance of school places, and "portakabins" being a regular feature in most playgrounds.
 
Inaccurate. Sure it was waning then, but central and local government were both warned about the likelihood of demographic change - it was part of the reason for mothballing provision - and yet local authorities continued (and continue) to sell off sites even in the face of that change. Dick Shepard and other schools were sold after it became statistically obvious that "internal migration" within an expanded EU would have an effect (notwithstanding the new Labour stupidity about "3,000 Poles"). In the part of S.E. Kent that my sister lives in, a primary school site was sold off for housing despite there being a negative balance of school places, and "portakabins" being a regular feature in most playgrounds.

I don't think anyone expected the 7million to 9million surge from 2001-18
 
By strange coincidence the conversation I was talking about took place in Clapham, the gentleman in question was out canvassing for the May council elections, he said he was out early because they were worried about whch way Clapham Old Town was going.
Clapham Town has been marginal Labour/Tory for 30 years. I guess recent demographics might well favour the Tories. Labour should have been more diligent enforcing their social housing policies!
 
I was given a timed 2 mins to argue the case. So I did some internet research and quoted Lambeth Council's own policies about safeguarding historic buildings in the area / pubs / the cultural environment of Brixton etc. etc. blah. blah., but there were other things in place which rendered those arguments pointless in the eyes of the law (the CA could, apparently, be legally converted into a Tesco's anyway regardless of the outcome tonight or be legally demolished, regardless of how likely these arguments are). Thus the planning department told the councilors they had to vote against, even though all six expressed various regrets, as if they didn't, they could face an expensive appeal, plus they didn't really have a legal leg to stand on. Thus four councilors voted for the demolition, all said it was regrettable. One voted against and one abstained. The "best" thing to come out of the meeting was that three councilors argued what the policies regarding pub / building protection are actually for if they don't work in practice, and it was agreed that they would look into this - but then, what's the point? That seems a little too late for me. They also said that they would "try" to keep the fixtures and fittings from the Canterbury Arms and offer them for use elsewhere (the ridiculousness of this counter-argument got some laughs, at least). Regarding the lack of proper affordable housing, they again said that this had been considered and was OK in the eyes of the law.
You did well. Haven't commented before - I've been a bit cheesed off.
The only point I would add is that Bill Linskey of Brixton Society specifically went on about UDP policy 27 (Preserving local pubs) which Cllr Brian Palmer - the only councillor to vote against greatly amplified. That policy is now exposed as toothless.

The fact of the matter is Conway Taverns (owners) were willing sellers and the developers had clearly ingratiated themselves with the planners. In fact I can't remember a planning meeting where the planning officers were so forthright in supporting a planning application and rubbishing the objections.

I noticed something on the government Planning Portal. Lambeth actually gets "New Homes Bonus" payments (£2 million this year). This is unencumbered funding awarded on the number of new homes delivered (by planning).
Then you have to consider the amount of future income to be derived from Council Tax - in this case on 31 flats.

Maybe we need an audit of Brixton pubs to see if any others might be vulnerable to demolition.
 
I think many would have moved earlier if they had not been effectively chained there. The removal of those chains allowed people to move to find work. As Greebo says - many sent money back home, quite rapidly improving the economic situation there - even though it still has a long way to go. I work a lot with a hard nosed Pole who almost weeps when he talks about the overwhelming oppressiveness there before joining the EU, how pleased he was to be able to come here to earn money and how happy he is that his son can now choose to live in Poland and have a decent career - something that would not have been possible even 10 years ago.

Not sure what "Chains" you mean.

Communism fell in 1989/1990

Poland joined EU in 2004.

UK gave free movement of Polish workers to come here when Poland joined EU.

I do know Poles who came here around 2004 partly because of the "Twins" being in power. A right wing Catholic Nationalist government. They loathed it.They liked the fact the UK is secular and tolerant society (compared to Poland in 2004).

A Polish friend of mine had no time for Solidarity. As far as he was concerned they were dominated by right wing Catholic nationalists and Lech Walesa was just a figurehead.

Certainly the fall of Communism is now seen by the younger generation as qualified improvement. Several East Europeans have told me that people were nicer to each other under Communism. (That is ordinary people). That at least people had free health care, free education and low cost housing. Even if it was basic. Society was not competitive in the way it is now. So there were gains and losses.
 
Not sure what "Chains" you mean.

Communism fell in 1989/1990

Poland joined EU in 2004.

UK gave free movement of Polish workers to come here when Poland joined EU.

I do know Poles who came here around 2004 partly because of the "Twins" being in power. A right wing Catholic Nationalist government. They loathed it.They liked the fact the UK is secular and tolerant society (compared to Poland in 2004).

A Polish friend of mine had no time for Solidarity. As far as he was concerned they were dominated by right wing Catholic nationalists and Lech Walesa was just a figurehead.

Certainly the fall of Communism is now seen by the younger generation as qualified improvement. Several East Europeans have told me that people were nicer to each other under Communism. (That is ordinary people). That at least people had free health care, free education and low cost housing. Even if it was basic. Society was not competitive in the way it is now. So there were gains and losses.
If you go back and read it again you'll see that DF referred to people being chained into economic ghettos. I said that they moved when the chains were removed. As you have correctly surmised - this related to free movement. Hope that helps?

ETA: I mean DD - not DF. DF was in Press Gang.
 
If you go back and read it again you'll see that DF referred to people being chained into economic ghettos. I said that they moved when the chains were removed. As you have correctly surmised - this related to free movement. Hope that helps?

ETA: I mean DD - not DF. DF was in Press Gang.

This?

I work a lot with a hard nosed Pole who almost weeps when he talks about the overwhelming oppressiveness there before joining the EU,

The "Twins" and so called "Law and Justice Party" were in power up to 2007. So some of the Poles I knew found it oppressive after Poland joined EU. Fortunately EU enlargement meant they could come here. Another Pole I knew was a traditional Catholic and did not like it here so went back.
 
This?

The "Twins" and so called "Law and Justice Party" were in power up to 2007. So some of the Poles I knew found it oppressive after Poland joined EU. Fortunately EU enlargement meant they could come here. Another Pole I knew was a traditional Catholic and did not like it here so went back.

I really don't understand your point. Sorry.
 
Total figures. So it does include returnees.

Of course, there may be a outsurge of returnees at some point.

But, so far, there is no evidence of this in the ONS or Mayor of London population reports.

I'm fairly sure that you'll find that returnees weren't actually counted until about 2009/2010, as there was supposedly "no reason" to do so. The numbers prior to that were (IIRC) derived from estimates and extrapolations made by local authorities.
 
I'm fairly sure that you'll find that returnees weren't actually counted until about 2009/2010, as there was supposedly "no reason" to do so. The numbers prior to that were (IIRC) derived from estimates and extrapolations made by local authorities.

Maybe. But I don't think it matters - London's population is definitively higher. Much higher. And getting higher every year.
 
Maybe. But I don't think it matters - London's population is definitively higher. Much higher. And getting higher every year.

Oh, absolutely, but at least part of that is measurably internal migration - i.e. British people buying into the old myths about there being more, better-paid work in the capital.
 
The "solution" is a solution to an invented problem, though. I've lived here 17 years, and apart from 2 rows of flats at the bottom of the estate that have been pretty much devastated by a decade of inattention from the council, plus root impingement, subsidence and flooding (those three things being tied together), most of the rest of the supposedly desperately-needed repairs are superficial.
Lambeth have basically decided that what worked at Myatt's Fields will work here - the sell off of the 4 or so acres of open greenery on the estate, plus the demolition of the flats mentioned above, and a winnowing of the other properties on the estate (I can almost guarantee that the properties found most in need of repair by the current independent survey will miraculously cluster nearest to the estate's green spaces), and that from the sell-off money, the council will bank money, rather than reinvest it in the estate.

It's not the way to do things, unless you want to start a mini-class war on the estates that are victimised. me, I don't mind class war, but I don't expect that either the council or the (inevitably-private) new residents will be happy about it.

Sounds like Lambeth are being disingenuous about their motives then. But the fact remains that the council has had its funding cut by around a third, and getting new homes built (as national planning policy is supposed to dictate) actually provides them with possibly the only mechanism to accessing extra Government funding. Something's got to give
 
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