Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)

[stevebradley]

I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that.
It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.

As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.

Thanks for the compliments SBL. I'm intrigued to know who you are now....

I've expanded on what I think was behind events of the last 4 days - given the limited information we all have to date - in a couple of other posts above. Hopefully that helps to clarify where I'm coming from.

Nick Clegg may well have predicted disorder (I've no idea if he did personally, but aren't disputing it). But I suspect he was predicting more the likes of the TUC and Tuition fees riots, rather than people stripping clothes and electronics shops in copy-cat incidents. In my view one set of events was driven by ideological differences and concerns ; the other largely by greed and the overwhelming pervasiveness of our materialistic consumer society, which leads some people to feel they 'need' to own certain items/products, one way or another.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

I'd find it embarassing if i were in his position http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YItK1izQIwo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Minnie_the_Minx]

Chavez is actually my cat. But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.

Exactly, stop scaring chavez the cat. Cats like to sleep and object to be awoken by helicopters

 

[London_Calling]

Nick Clegg may well have predicted disorder (I've no idea if he did personally, but aren't disputing it). But I suspect he was predicting more the likes of the TUC and Tuition fees riots, rather than people stripping clothes and electronics shops in copy-cat incidents. In my view one set of events was driven by ideological differences and concerns ; the other largely by greed and the overwhelming pervasiveness of our materialistic consumer society, which leads some people to feel they 'need' to own certain items/products, one way or another.

What do you think the looting for 25 years of the public purse by MPs and Peers was about? Or the looting of £tens of billions each year from the Treasury by Ashcroft, Philip Green and the rest of the ennobled corporate tax avoiders, of the systematic looting for a decade also from the Treasury of £hundreds of billions by 'the masters of the universe' in the City - these teenagers have had a world class education in self-interest, greed and, yes, plain looting these past three years. If you want to apply your GCSE level socio-political nonsense to current events, lets have a little context.

 

[Greebo]

What do you think the looting for 25 years of the public purse by MPs and Peers was about?<snip> If you want to apply your GCSE level socio-political nonsense to current events, lets have a little context.

Agreed

 

[Gramsci]

That's your interpretation of the 'logic' of my argument. And it's wrong.

There is minimal comparison between 1981 and recent events in my mind. Any attempt to do so just gives criminal opportunism a credibility and glamour it doesn't deserve, whilst dragging a genuine historical event event down to a level that dishonours it. 1981 deserves better.

Dont tell me about glamourising rioting. Ive lived through all the riots in Brixton. The 81 riots and the rest included looting and setting fire to premises - I saw it.

You are glamourising the past but coming on all Daily Mail about the present.

In that case you wouldnt have a problem with the disorder around the student protests? Under your logic (again) they would count as being ideologically driven. Also the Anarchists attacks on banks and Topshop at the last anti cuts demo?

 

[Gramsci]

Clegg has just been interviewed on the Today programme squirming when asked about his comments some time ago about that cuts etc would cause trouble.

 

[Ms T]

Though they can still get away with low-level stuff, like being paid to pass info to reporters.

As an aside - the biggest beneficiaries of events in England since Saturday are not those sitting at home with newly plundered TVs and trainers. It's the Murdochs - who must be thanking the gods that the spotlight has shifted completely and utterly away from them. They were still on the ropes last week, but now they've been completely forgotten about. And at the same time, the violence has shunted the public mood in the direction of their papers' right wing agenda. Double win for them

A former NOTW Senior Editor was arrested today, and I only found out about it in an Irish newspaper..!

You obviously weren't listening to the news on BBC Radio - personally put that story in at least twice yesterday.

 

[Ms T]

Chavez is actually my cat. But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.

Cool cat name, btw.

 

[CH1]

A 31yr old employee of Stockwell Primary School pleaded guilty to looting in court today.

Lives in Battersea and works in Stockwell/Brixton, but was caught looting Richer Sounds in Croydon !? Also lives with his mum.

Other occupations listed for those pleading guilty last night included a number of university graduates, apprentices, a graphic designer, an army recruit, a forklift driver and a social worker.

So much for the theory that it was people with no hope lashing out at society. Pure opportunistic theft and recreational thuggery was the order of the day.

I'm interested in this case. Presumably the person concerned will now lose their job even if not sent down - he/she will have lost their CRC status. Of course we don't know whether he/she was summoned to Richer Sounds by Blackberry or just walking past when the window stove in.
I am totally against all crimes against the person and crimes against property - but I also feel we are in a totally value free society whose ultimate aim is hedonism and macho posturing whether it be from Dave Cam, Fred the Shred or 50 cent.
24 hour news has hyped the situation up and encouraged breakdown in law and order. I think Steve is right there is no comparison with 1981, but there is with 1983. Just about everyone rioted in 1983 - even Wilmslow in Cheshire. This was at the depths of Maggie's depression - coal mines being closed down, unprecedented unemployment etc. People were totally demoralised.
In a sense they are totally demoralised now - unemployment is expected to remain high - the government are taking measures to make it more and more difficult to claim benefits. In a sense I share Steve's surprise that
someone in an apparently secure job should risk their career just for a bit of HiFi or a TV set.
To modify a trite but apt phrase of William Congreve's - We riot in haste and repent at leisure.

 

[co-op]

In a sense they are totally demoralised now - unemployment is expected to remain high - the government are taking measures to make it more and more difficult to claim benefits. In a sense I share Steve's surprise that
someone in an apparently secure job should risk their career just for a bit of HiFi or a TV set.
To modify a trite but apt phrase of William Congreve's - We riot in haste and repent at leisure.

I don't know anything about the case in question except what Steve Bradley has cited but why wouldn't it be a bit demoralising to be 31 years old, in a steady job and having no option except to be living at home with your mum? There's no way someone on primary school teacher's wages is going to be able to afford even a crappy little bedsit in Battersea/Stockwell/Brixton let alone - God forbid - a house with a garden for a child to play in. Never. Not even if they keep their nose clean and play the game. Never. That's permanent; no one who hasn't bought already in this area is ever going to be able to afford a decent home that lets them enjoy some of the incredibly modest possibilities of family life - except of course for the super-rich.

Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?

Just for the hysterics who want to accuse me of supporting looting, of course I'm not saying that this justifies looting etc but the collapse in the level of legitimate expectations of ordinary people's lives has been spectacular and if you don't let people have a stake in society then you can expect shit like this.

 

[CH1]

I don't know anything about the case in question except what Steve Bradley has cited but why wouldn't it be a bit demoralising to be 31 years old, in a steady job and having no option except to be living at home with your mum? There's no way someone on primary school teacher's wages is going to be able to afford even a crappy little bedsit in Battersea/Stockwell/Brixton let alone - God forbid - a house with a garden for a child to play in. Never. Not even if they keep their nose clean and play the game. Never. That's permanent; no one who hasn't bought already in this area is ever going to be able to afford a decent home that lets them enjoy some of the incredibly modest possibilities of family life - except of course for the super-rich.

Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?

Just for the hysterics who want to accuse me of supporting looting, of course I'm not saying that this justifies looting etc but the collapse in the level of legitimate expectations of ordinary people's lives has been spectacular and if you don't let people have a stake in society then you can expect shit like this.

You are absolutely right about housing. And it's even worse than what you say - for many years now banks have been giving mortgages to property speculators who then rent out vile bedsits to refugees, people with mental health problems, ex prisoners etc all paid for by Social Services. Yet another example of "The PFI" beloved by Gordon Brown. Get Fred the Shred to lend to "landlords" thus pricing property out of the reach of people wanting their own home. Banks satisfied, Social Services satisfied - but ordinary people FUCKED!

 

[TruXta]

Stevebradley, I'm astounded by your unwillingness to accede that these riots had any connection to ideology. Consumerism and hedonism is the ideology of your beloved neo-liberalism. Greed and selfishness are the almost inevitable outcomes of buying into this ideological framework, and yet you seek to divorce the motives of the rioters from this. Disgraceful.

 

[CH1]

Stevebradley, I'm astounded by your unwillingness to accede that these riots had any connection to ideology. Consumerism and hedonism is the ideology of your beloved neo-liberalism. Greed and selfishness are the almost inevitable outcomes of buying into this ideological framework, and yet you seek to divorce the motives of the rioters from this. Disgraceful.

Are you saying that rioting is fun, or maybe sexually stimulating?
I'm sure the Electoral Commission has a vacancy for an Wilhelm Reich Orgone Party - if you are proposing one

 

[TruXta]

Are you saying that rioting is fun, or maybe sexually stimulating?
I'm sure the Electoral Commission has a vacancy for an Wilhelm Reich Orgone Party - if you are proposing one

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few Riot Babies on the way tbh. I'd be well up for an Orgone Party. Man the accumulators!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.

 

[stevebradley]

Steve - do you own your own house? Where did you get the money for that? I seem to remember hearing that you were a property "developer" (i.e profiteer) yourself - don't know if this is true but maybe you could clear that up?

Yes I own my own place - mortgaged to the hilt. The deposit for it was cobbled together from a) money I made on a flat I bought 11yrs ago when I lived in Newcastle (itself bought on a zero-deposit deal my employer at the time had with local bank Northern Rock) that rocketed in value, plus b) a substantial personal loan which I will still be paying off in years. Though in fairness, individual's personal finances are none of your business. I look forward to full disclosure of your finances in return. Not because I'm in any way interested, but just in the interests of equity

As for the notion that I'm a property developer - I bloody wish ! Have you seen my 9yr old car second-hand with dents and scratches all over it ? This is a smear that Labour tried to put out during the by-election when I was elected - though strangely they only mentioned it once in a single letter. I suspect they realised they were in very murky legal waters so had to stop. It's complete bollox, though I'd expect nothing less from Lambeth Labour. I do have a background - and a Masters degree - as a consultant in sustainable urban regeneration, and I have advised football clubs (which is my real passion) on how to sustainably develop their facilities. But that no more makes me a property developer than a Theology degree and a dog collar would make me Jesus Christ

As we're all into the spirit of disclosure now, I'd love to know where your 'information' on this came from ? Didn't you used to/still work for Labour, or have I got you mixed up with someone else on here...?

 

[CH1]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few Riot Babies on the way tbh. I'd be well up for an Orgone Party. Man the accumulators!

Maybe we should consider it then. I reckon a slate of Orgies in Coldharbour Ward would win hands down. Pity about our demure Rachel (unless she defects).The other two deserve oblivion in my view.

 

[TruXta]

Maybe we should consider it then. I reckon a slate of Orgies in Coldharbour Ward would win hands down. Pity about our demure Rachel (unless she defects).The other two deserve oblivion in my view.

I'll bust out my Cloudbusters then.

 

[CH1]

Yes I own my own place - mortgaged to the hilt. The deposit for it was cobbled together from a) money I made on a flat I bought 11yrs ago when I lived in Newcastle (itself bought on a zero-deposit deal my employer at the time had with local bank Northern Rock) that rocketed in value, plus b) a substantial personal loan which I will still be paying off in years. Though in fairness, individual's personal finances are none of your business. I look forward to full disclosure of your finances in return. Not because I'm in any way interested, but just in the interests of equity

As for the notion that I'm a property developer - I bloody wish ! Have you seen my 9yr old car second-hand with dents and scratches all over it ? This is a smear that Labour tried to put out during the by-election when I was elected - though strangely they only mentioned it once in a single letter. I suspect they realised they were in very murky legal waters so had to stop. It's complete bollox, though I'd expect nothing less from Lambeth Labour. I do have a background - and a Masters degree - as a consultant in sustainable urban regeneration, and I have advised football clubs (which is my real passion) on how to sustainably develop their facilities. But that no more makes me a property developer than a Theology degree and a dog collar would make me Jesus Christ

As we're all into the spirit of disclosure now, I'd love to know where your 'information' on this came from ? Didn't you used to/still work for Labour, or have I got you mixed up with someone else on here...?

Steve don't rise to the bait! You only need to justify yourself to constituents.
I must say politics has gone soft now in Lambeth. When I was a councillor 1994-98 two councillors went to prison - one (Tory) for fraudulent mortgage application, one (Labour) for having a string of council flats whilst owning his own house. Additionally the leader of the Labour group had to resign for fraudulently altering a disabled parking badge. Why are they complaining about you now? Tell 'em to get on the naughty step, or get in the Orgone box with me!

 

[stevebradley]

I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.

I'm in bed with Tescos ?!

I feel sorry for you Magpie. You haven't a feckin' clue - you really don't. I'm actually doing everything I can to frustrate a Tesco planning application they have to open a store in my ward, as I want to protect the existign local shops there. It's futile, as I can't stop them under the planning rules - but I can at least delay them and make it hard for them. You really haven't got a feckin clue about my views on Brixton Market either, and unsurprisingly are completely wrong on that score as well.

I've been a member of U75 for 7yrs now - and only a councillor for 3 of those. I don't come on the site too often these days, but I've been very open about the fact that I'm a councillor on here, and I've tried to be helpful with issues people raise (e.g. the unapproved advertising hoarding on CHL) and the odd bit of casework that people have contacted me about directly (even though they haven't been constituents of mine). But you know what - it's really not worth it when people literally just make up sh!t like this.

I now see why I'm the only person who posts on here openly as a councillor. But to be honest it's just not worth my time doing so any more when I have to put up with made-up sh!t like this and the stuff above from Co-op. People always say they want their public representatives to be more open, accessible, involved etc. And then when one tries to do so they have to spend time defendign themselves against complete and utter nonesense from anonymous people who haven't a clue. Really not worth it anymore.

P.S. If you genuinely want to see how 'in bed' I am with Tesco, come along to the Planning Applications Committee meeting in September (precise meeting tbc) where I'll be fighting against their store application in my ward. It's going to PAC because I specifically requested it do so, rather than have it decided by officers on their own. Or come along to the Licensing Applications Committee meeting (date tbc) where I'll be speaking against their liquor application for the same store. Or maybe you'll be too busy sitting at home on your keyboard anonymously making stuff up...

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

I do not much care for Mr Bradley. He's practically in bed with Tescos. The long term ruination of Brixton Market. I can't trust a single word he says about anything.

Well, i see far more of him around our ward than I do of our other cllrs and I've not heard bad things about him which is unusual as I'm a right gossip.
Tescos and the Market? Why so Mrs M? Can we gossip?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Ice rink.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I must admit this is the perception locally. If he's anti-rink in Brixton I will give a grovelling apology over a coffee in the Phoenix. Or a pint in the Albert

 

[Emet]

Neo-liberalism is just fine. Spare us the dead hand of the state.

 

[TruXta]

Neo-liberalism is just fine. Spare us the dead hand of the state.

I don't think you know what neo-liberalism means if you think the state has no role to play in its roll-out.

 

[Winot]

I must admit this is the perception locally. If he's anti-rink in Brixton I will give a grovelling apology over a coffee in the Phoenix. Or a pint in the Albert

You don't need to be anti-rink to escape the charge of being "practically in bed with Tesco's". Sounds like an apology is in order to me (wouldn't expect you to grovel though).

 

[Emet]

I don't think you know what neo-liberalism means if you think the state has no role to play in its roll-out.

As little as possible I hope.

 

[TruXta]

As little as possible I hope.

On the contrary. The state is massively implicated in neo-liberalism - by definiton it has to. The increase in the marketization of everything is utterly dependent on state sanction. Loads of threads on that around here, this really isn't the place so I'll leave it at that.

 

[CH1]

I'm in bed with Tescos ?!

I feel sorry for you Magpie. You haven't a feckin' clue - you really don't. I'm actually doing everything I can to frustrate a Tesco planning application they have to open a store in my ward, as I want to protect the existign local shops there. It's futile, as I can't stop them under the planning rules - but I can at least delay them and make it hard for them. You really haven't got a feckin clue about my views on Brixton Market either, and unsurprisingly are completely wrong on that score as well.

I've been a member of U75 for 7yrs now - and only a councillor for 3 of those. I don't come on the site too often these days, but I've been very open about the fact that I'm a councillor on here, and I've tried to be helpful with issues people raise (e.g. the unapproved advertising hoarding on CHL) and the odd bit of casework that people have contacted me about directly (even though they haven't been constituents of mine). But you know what - it's really not worth it when people literally just make up sh!t like this.

I now see why I'm the only person who posts on here openly as a councillor. But to be honest it's just not worth my time doing so any more when I have to put up with made-up sh!t like this and the stuff above from Co-op. People always say they want their public representatives to be more open, accessible, involved etc. And then when one tries to do so they have to spend time defendign themselves against complete and utter nonesense from anonymous people who haven't a clue. Really not worth it anymore.

P.S. If you genuinely want to see how 'in bed' I am with Tesco, come along to the Planning Applications Committee meeting in September (precise meeting tbc) where I'll be fighting against their store application in my ward. It's going to PAC because I specifically requested it do so, rather than have it decided by officers on their own. Or come along to the Licensing Applications Committee meeting (date tbc) where I'll be speaking against their liquor application for the same store. Or maybe you'll be too busy sitting at home on your keyboard anonymously making stuff up...

A few points here:
1. Very few people post openly at all here. Presumably it is partly a throwback to the days
of USENET when people used to post upsetting and untraceable comments (flaming). This type of culture may be conducive to Oscar Wilde witticism, but often people are just venting bile.
2. Making allegations about councillors is one thing - when said councillor gets legal beagles involved is another - as appeared to happen with T Smith. Urban should have an etiquette about treatment of officials. Otherwise they get fried (how about The Commander-B Paddick). Maybe all councillors have to be anonymous on Urban 75 - or not use it - DEBATE
3. This Tesco fetish pisses me off. Sorry to go on like an old man, but in 1997 or thereabouts Tescos wanted to take over the derelict South London Hospital for Women.They offered to relocate the Clapham Park Library (a popular local library in my ward-Thornton) which the council wanted to sell off for housing. When the planning application came up I voted for Tescos - because most of my constituents on the Poynders Garden Estate and the Oaklands Estate were very keen - and the library offer was there.
In the end commercial pressures from Abbeville Road, yuppies, buppies, dinkies etc. pressured the Planning Committee to reconsider and it was made abundantly clear that I MUST vote against Tescos or risk a personal surcharge.
What happened in the end - Tescos appealed - £100,000+ of your council tax money (assuming you pay any) went in legal fees. Tescos got their supermarket - but Thornton Ward did not get their library saved. The anti Tesco campaigners cut off my constituents nose to spite their face. Hooray!
4. Licensing application - I will be very surprised if this is refused. You practically have to be an armed robber to have a license refused by Lambeth!