Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Brixton violence and looting (7th Aug 2011)

Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.

Yes, he spoke very well. Good to see it's getting alot of airplay on the news channels at the moment.
 
Yes, he spoke very well. Good to see it's getting alot of airplay on the news channels at the moment.

He spoke very well for your standard Wednesday, more so for having just lost his son, pretty much the worst thing that can happen to a person.
 
Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.
It was genuinely moving hearing him speak; incredibly lucid and pragmatic considering the circumstances.
 
Tariq Jahan has more integrity, courage, compassion, presence, sincerity, love and respect for his community, calm, understanding and sense than any of the talking heads we've had to suffering preaching at us the last few days from our tvs.

e2a: and from some on here.

and forgiveness than I would ever have
 
Got to Manchester today - just walked around the centre - like Cuba or Russia - a police state.

Groups of Police huddling in the rain, on the corner of every otherwise deserted street, waiting for what happened yesterday.

One prestigious store, hit then, had as many as 15 of its own security standing guard outside.

Three young lads, minding their own business, stopped and made to account for their movements.

With brolly and glasses, I looked too old to attract more than suspicious looks.

Makes me think that British policing, current spending cuts not withstanding will come more to resemble these countries or America's zero tolerance to keep the proles in check.

I was told today Met officer was paid £500 O/T to go to Manchester for the day. I remember during the Miners Strike the Met were raking it in on overtime pay.
 
You might care to extend the historical context back a bit. The UK's living standards had been on the slide for a good few years under Labour, and Heath's Tories, before that. The IMF had loaned some billions to keep the show on the road in the mid-1970's. The UK didn't look as if it could make it as an industrial economy, with low-end industry beginning to go east. The trade union reforms could be seen as of little relevance, and mostly for show: the industrial working class was dead; it didn't need a trade union movement.

North Sea Oil came on tap as Thatcher came to power. It could have been used to rebuild more modern industrial base. Because UK had economic problems does not mean that Thatcherism was just inevitable. Her Monetarist policies were (successful in Thatcherites view) project to restructure the economy and society.

Thatchers policies increased social inequality and ruthlessly "modernised" the economy with no regard for a great many ordinary people.

The rapid deficit reduction being pursued by this Government and its social "reforms" (most of which it didnt tell us about during the election) have echoes of the way the Thatcherites pursued there policies.
 
Pure opportunistic theft and recreational thuggery was the order of the day.
I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that.
It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.

As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.
 
Do you honestly expect him to do otherwise? And if he does parrot the Tory line, will the media remind of his words from the last election?
 
I believe it's his place to Truxta.
And yes, it's the medias place to highlight their hypocrisies as they arise.
I'm an out and out optimist :)
 
North Sea Oil came on tap as Thatcher came to power. It could have been used to rebuild more modern industrial base. Because UK had economic problems does not mean that Thatcherism was just inevitable. Her Monetarist policies were (successful in Thatcherites view) project to restructure the economy and society.

Thatchers policies increased social inequality and ruthlessly "modernised" the economy with no regard for a great many ordinary people.

The rapid deficit reduction being pursued by this Government and its social "reforms" (most of which it didnt tell us about during the election) have echoes of the way the Thatcherites pursued there policies.
Likely the revenue would have been spent on consumption. There was almost 30% inflation at some point around 1977. The government was printing money to keep going. There were endless discussions in the media about why we couldn't be like Germany - and a government report( the Bullock Report), and endless strikes: quite often to do with demarcation disputes. It is difficult to believe that a culture of industrial co-operation could have been revived, not easily anyway. The trade union leaders used to be ferried around in Rolls Royces in those days.
 
I find this statement really saddening. I like you Steve, you do good things in our community, you get involved and I would have thought you'd be a bit more considered than this. In fact it's not a hope but an expectation, I expect politicians and community representatives and organisers to be more considered than this. You must; you can't simply let this situation deepen the Them and Us divide and you mustn't allow these to become a moral debate because it's a more than that.
It's your responsibility to represent the people of this area and so to dismissively say that it's pure opportunism and thuggery is at best lazy or short sighted.

As said before, the leader of your party predicted this, I will be paying close attention to what he says once parliament is back and the debate begins. He, and by extension the Lib Dems, will lose any remaining credibility if he backtracks and simply parrots Cameron's rhetoric.

Top class posts Shifty Bag Lady.

:)
 
A bit of history is relevant. If u think this is the case do you object with the 81 riots in Brixton being celebrated recently as an "Uprising"? I remember the riots that happened in the 80s. During the 81 riot there was looting and destruction of of local businesses. Also the Fire Brigade were attacked when they arrived on the scene.

I didnt notice politicians complaining about the recent anniversary of 81.

The logic of your argument is that all rioting is inexcusable and people should always use the correct institutional channels and democratic procedures. However much they fell aggrieved and not listened to. Is this your position?

That's your interpretation of the 'logic' of my argument. And it's wrong.

I'm from Northern Ireland. I was born in Derry city a few months after 14 unarmed civil rights demonstrators, many of them children, were shot dead by Paratroopers - with over half shot in the back whilst running away. Britain's Tiannenman Square.

I spent 19yrs of my life being brought up in a city and a part of the world where severe community-rooted, politically-motivated public disorder was the norm, not the exception. I *get* the fact that public disorder can spring from justified grievances that aren't being addressed (particularly as Northrn Ireland was set up deliberately as a sectarian apartheid state).

But in the 30yrs of Northern Ireland's shockingly frequent public disorder - some of which I witnessed first hand - I don't recall hearing of a single incident of looting. I do recall, however, as a small child being in a shop in the Bogside in Derry whilst a riot was happening nearby. Two rioters came in wearing balaclavas. They got a couple of bottles of Lemonade, went to the front of the queue, aplogised to everyone else for pushing in and then paid for their drinks before leaving to presumably rejoin the riot.

I have no doubt that the events in Tottenham on Saturday night reflected the level of community anger there, fuelled by the inadequate response of the poiice to the Duggan shooting. I suspect the events on Sunday in places like Brixton had more to do with criminal opportunism (you only have to look at the types of premises that were attacked/looted to understand that). And I have no doubt that the events since then have been very largely "motivated by greed and violence". Not my words - but those of Diane Abbot on Newsnight tonight. As she said - we need to say it like it is.

The 1981 riots were motivated by genuine grievances against a blatantly racist police force that had been building up for some time and had no legal channel of being addressed. But this is not 1981. There is absolutely no comparison between the genuine explosion of communal rage that happened in 1981 and the stuff we've seen over the last few nights, and any attempt to do so both elevates the recent events to a level they don't deserve and drags the 1981 events down to a status that they deserve better than. In 1981 they didn't just loot a few electronics and clothes stores for a few hours and then melt away. They rioted consistently for 3 nights. If Brixton on Sunday was driven by some sort of idelogical reasoning, purpose or long pent-up rage/frustration - as 1981 was - then why weren't they out making their point night after night ? The npolice were so stretched on Monday night that Brixton would've been at their mercy. It's because if we're honest it was largely about looting and recerational violence, not a geneuine protest. Anything worth nicking was gone after one night.

There is minimal comparison between 1981 and recent events in my mind. Any attempt to do so just gives criminal opportunism a credibility and glamour it doesn't deserve, whilst dragging a genuine historical event event down to a level that dishonours it. 1981 deserves better.
 
On the causes of the trouble, no doubt there'll be a huge amount of post analysis, rationalisation etc etc. But a few interesting things that need investigating :

- Why was there trouble in cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, whilst arguably more disadvantaged towns like Newcastle, Hull and Sheffield remained quiet ? One viewpoint on TV tonight was that events were largely driven by the presence of organised gang networks (driven largely by money) with the ability to organise a large hardcore of people onto the streets to take the lead in the looting.

- Why was the trouble confined to England ? Glasgow has huge social deprivation/inequality and massive social problems, plus a deeply rooted gang culture that stretches back generations. It also has the added tinder of entrenched sectarian animosity. Why was nowhere outside of England interested in copy-cat trouble ?

- Alongside the large urban areas, why was there copy cat trouble in somewhere relatively rural like Gloucester ? Or in a small city like Leicester, with its strong commuinity networks ?

- Contrary to the perception of events the public appears to have, it's been reported that the majority of those up in court today were white employed adults. How far from the expected/stereotypical profile of 'disaffected youth' participants was the reality, and why ?

Sociologists and social-psychologists will be clocking up serious over-time trying to work all of this out over the next few months. No doubt the race is already on to get the first book published 'explaining' it all.
 
The police were completely out of control around here in the 1970's. There's been a lot of reform in the years following. It is much more difficult for them to get away with the brutality and fraud they practiced commonly in times past.
 
:D

Are you disagreeing with her viewpoint btw ?

I expect so. I've forgotten what you said she said and what I heard her say myself. I do remember some rather intemperate language issuing from my mouth when she did speak. I've barely watched the news since the ConDems got to power because I don't have the money to replace my telly if I put a shoe through it and I've missed looting season, it seems.

As for experts on sociology etc putting books out no doubt those in power will do what they always do and completely ignore the advice of experts who have taken the time to actually study and analyse the situations we find ourselves in because it doesn't fit in with their own self-interest and policies. You seem to hold them in contempt yourself.
 
The police were completely out of control around here in the 1970's. There's been a lot of reform in the years following. It is much more difficult for them to get away with the brutality and fraud they practiced commonly in times past.

Though they can still get away with low-level stuff, like being paid to pass info to reporters.

As an aside - the biggest beneficiaries of events in England since Saturday are not those sitting at home with newly plundered TVs and trainers. It's the Murdochs - who must be thanking the gods that the spotlight has shifted completely and utterly away from them. They were still on the ropes last week, but now they've been completely forgotten about. And at the same time, the violence has shunted the public mood in the direction of their papers' right wing agenda. Double win for them :mad:

A former NOTW Senior Editor was arrested today, and I only found out about it in an Irish newspaper..!
 
Rupert Murdoch on the riots: "These people are criminals. If you don't believe me, listen to their voicemails''
 
You seem to hold them in contempt yourself.

Who - the experts/academics ?!

Far from it. I'm looking forward to understanding what the hell went on, as so much of it just doesn't make sense.

In return - you seem to follow the school of thought that looks largely to the government to wave a wand and sort deep-rooted societal problems. In reality there's only so much any government can do, and the time-scales involved will be so long that practically no politician could get their head around it all. Everyone needs to play a part in sorting out the ills of society, not just look over at the government to magic up the answers. The government can't sit in every home.
 
Who - the experts/academics ?!

Far from it. I'm looking forward to understanding what the hell went on, as so much of it just doesn't make sense.

In return - you seem to follow the school of thought that looks largely to the government to wave a wand and sort deep-rooted societal problems. In reality there's only so much any government can do, and the time-scales involved will be so long that practically no politician could get their head around it all. Everyone needs to play a part in sorting out the ills of society, not just look over at the government to magic up the answers. The government can't sit in every home.

I don't think that any government can wave a magic wand. But not holding all but the richest of their electorate in complete and utter contempt would be a good first step. This government are wantonly destroying more homes, more livelihoods, more lives than any looters. Not wantonly, intentionally. They (and labour before them, and the thatcherites before them) have eroded and are further eroding rights and benefits hard fought for in the preceding decades. They are stealing from us, and hobbling us in playing a part in improving our own lives. What the government does (or is meant to do) for its people is not some product of their benevolence. We pay for it. But the money we pay them to arrange collective services has been stolen from us to pay for the banks' greed, tax avoidance of the rich and unjust wars.
 
In Brixton? Stop telling porkies and scaring chavez
Chavez is actually my cat. But you always make me laugh Minnie...I've been a lurker on the boards since I moved here coming up to 7 years ago. I'm just getting panicked calls from my elderly parents and trying to reassure them by giving them play-by-play.
 
Back
Top Bottom