editor
hiraethified
So what did you mean when you said that they "got off lightly?"
Brixton news, rumours and general chat - March 2013
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Kanda
Diving wanker
That they could quite easily have been shut down.
Licensing teams generally aren't there to shut you down (although some may think otherwise), they're there to ensure and help you comply with the objectives set out in the Licensing Act 2003, if you breach the terms of your licence they can shut you down. First by removing the individual licence holders license (you just get someone else tied in with the premises licence, think this is what happened to Sout Beach Bar)) and I think (I'll have to check) they can remove the premises licence... or just make it really difficult to operate.
editor
hiraethified
They could have, but I think that would be massively unfair given the long-term reputation of the club as a hugely safe and trouble free venue. Clearly there had to be a response because it was a very serious (one off) incident, but it may well prove hard for the club to survive in the future, even if you think they're getting off lightly.
I don't think it's entirely reasonable to compare such a long term institution with the South Beach Bar.
Kanda
Diving wanker
I wasn't comparing them to South Beach. I also hope it doesn't close down, I was simply commenting on the pdf report above and the restrictions imposed.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
But what sort of response to the shooting would have been reasonable?
ID scanning does not sit comfortably for me at all but the same proposed conditions are already in force across the road and several other venues. They are not being singled out for harsh treatment.
editor
hiraethified
I have some opinions, but to be honest I don't really want to speculate about them now, given the fact that the licensing meeting is tonight.
I didn't think any other venue in Coldharbour Lane has ID scanning apart from the Dogstar. Yet, anyway.
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hiraethified
I understand it was at least partly due to increasing levels of bag theft by professional gangs who have proved a blight around Brixton's nightlife in recent times.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
The police cannot get enough of this kind of thing. ANPR was brought in without democratic discussion. ACPO decided it was a good idea.
The police are using problems at venues to gradually bring ID scanning. Which I notice is not just to prove you are right age but to be recorded and passed onto Met in some form on a regular basis. So what do the Met do with this info? Keep it? Its another source of intelligence for them.
Kanda
Diving wanker
I'd say that's a bit paranoid.
The licensing act:
The Act sets out four licensing objectives which must be taken into account when a local authority carries out its functions. They are:
- the prevention of crime and disorder,
- public safety,
- prevention of public nuisance, and
- the protection of children from harm
Now, if licencee's are not doing enough to fit in with the above objectives, what do you propose the police do???
It's not an unreasonable act to fit in with, if you don't comply with it you'll get shit like ID machines etc. If you do comply, you'll have no such issues.
editor
hiraethified
Just about every pub and club gets an isolated punch-up or nasty incident, but I wouldn't like to see that becoming an excuse for the cops to burden them with their ID-grabbing machines.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
True. But I don't think they'd be in this situation if they'd had a isolated punch up.
Kanda
Diving wanker
They wouldn't be able to with isolated incidents, unless the licencee was repeatedly breaching terms of their licence or not doing enough to comply with the act.
People getting shot and knives being found when part of the licence agreement states that they have to search people isn't gonna do them any favours at all.
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hiraethified
One person getting shot. One knife. On the same night. Just for clarity, like.
editor
hiraethified
Indeed. They had an isolated gun-wielding psychopath. I still can't even begin to get my head around that kind of person.
To be fair, it does seem like the police were open to the idea of the club reopening straight away - as long as the conditions (above) were met.
On the morning that the temp suspension was agreed, Sgt Strange from Lambeth Police, said that his Inspector was happy for it to reopen. He was then asked for her personal opinion and he said that the license should be revoked, pending a full review within 28 days.
It's clear taking everything into account - the knife that was found, the fag ends inside the club and the incident of "rushing" the club the week before - other events did not help matters. But at the same time, for a club that's been there for decades, police could not identify another similar incident that had taken place there in recent times. The owners showed contrition. You cannot compare the 414 situation to the South Beach Bar. Totally different.
Whatever happens, the ClubScan stuff will be in every club/late night bar in the land by the end of the decade.
On the morning that the temp suspension was agreed, Sgt Strange from Lambeth Police, said that his Inspector was happy for it to reopen. He was then asked for her personal opinion and he said that the license should be revoked, pending a full review within 28 days.
It's clear taking everything into account - the knife that was found, the fag ends inside the club and the incident of "rushing" the club the week before - other events did not help matters. But at the same time, for a club that's been there for decades, police could not identify another similar incident that had taken place there in recent times. The owners showed contrition. You cannot compare the 414 situation to the South Beach Bar. Totally different.
Whatever happens, the ClubScan stuff will be in every club/late night bar in the land by the end of the decade.
Kanda
Diving wanker
Gun shouldn't have got in the club. Nor should the knife they found.
That's 2 breaches right there. I'm not anti 414, I hope it doesn't close but if you have lapses to your licence like that I don't think there is much argument against a more stringent license requirement. especially considering the severity of what happened.
Kanda
Diving wanker
No comparison was made. I simply stated what I was told happened at South Beach when talking about licence laws. Re-read it and tell me where I compared the two??
Wasn't really refering to your comments personally, tbh. Just that there were far more licencing related issues at the SBB than at the 414.
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hiraethified
Yep. Spot on.
By all accounts, most of the people there on that night were totally disrespectful from the start, really taking the piss and treating the staff badly. It sounds like it was a dreadful night and - frankly - a bad idea putting it on in the first place.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Mass and Babalou had similar licence requirements which came into force when particular types of night were being held.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Yes it was a bad idea. But you can't brush aside bad judgement by the person responsible for everyone's safety. He knew what this crowd had been like in the past and had previously refused to associate with them. He took a calculated risk letting them back in and it didn't pay off. It's just a good job no one was killed.
Bear in mind that Lambeth is going apeshit over the so-called "nighttime economy" at the moment. They see the decisions made in the past as mistakes, when licenses were dished out to anyone who applied and new bars inherited old ones. Hence why they want to curb Clapham High Street and make sure clubs in Brixton fall in line.
I get the sense that if you give them any indication that you're not running the premise tightly, you could have your licence suspended. There'll be more of this, I guarantee it.
I get the sense that if you give them any indication that you're not running the premise tightly, you could have your licence suspended. There'll be more of this, I guarantee it.
editor
hiraethified
You're making an awful lot of assumptions there.
Kanda
Diving wanker
So they're making people do what they were required to do in the first place. I see bugger all wrong with this.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
Which bit? I'm gong on boring administrative facts - DPS/Licencee are ultimately responsible for decision making and safety and security - and what you have said about the owner, i.e. he had avoided reggae nights with this bunch but then he met them at a funeral and thought they'd mellowed so thought he'd have a go.
editor
hiraethified
You're assuming that it was exactly the same people and the same promoter at the event for starters.
editor
hiraethified
Really? I bet they never thought of that.
We're talking about the 414. A place that probably has the longest serving staff of any club in Brixton, so I'm pretty sure that their welfare was always in the forefront of the management. But even in the best run clubs, the unexpected can sometimes happen and things can get out of hand, although I'd wager that the 414 has probably got one of the best long-term records of any club in Brixton.
Lessons have to be learnt to ensure that this never happens again, and knowing the club, its regulars and the owners the way I do, I have every confidence that they'll do their utmost to ensure it doesn't happen again - which is surely the outcome everyone wants, no?
Rushy
basically a scrotum
I don't care whether they were exactly the same people of it if was his grandad's second counsin's auntie's boyfriend's timpany band. It's irrelevant. Based on whatever evidence he made a decision to host reggae nights. For whatever reason he chose these particular promoters. For whatever reason he decided that it was appropriate to allow the security to be managed in the way that it was. And for whatever reason, when it all started showing signs of going wrong he let it continue. Those decisions of his culminated in some total fucknut shooting someone in his venue. He didn't shoot anyone or intend anyone get shot but he is responsible for safety and he knows that. It happened on his watch when he wasn't following the rules and it went wrong. Luckily, the outcome could have been worse.
Given his apparently good operating history it seems fair that he be allowed to keep his licence with extra conditions akin to those at other local venues, as has been proposed by the police.
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