Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Brixton news, rumours and general chat: Autumn 2019

Status
Not open for further replies.
Their economic manifesto was a wish list.
Not believable.
Certainly not economic!

without Corbyn (or his acolytes) I think they would be more likely to come up with a manifesto that would be trustworthy
This is undoubtedly true and I think it put off a lot of people. It's legitimate for people to question what a massive spending program would mean for them. I think they either didn't believe it making the manifesto meaningless to them or thought they'd have to pay for it which scared them.
 
This is undoubtedly true and I think it put off a lot of people. It's legitimate for people to question what a massive spending program would mean for them. I think they either didn't believe it making the manifesto meaningless to them or thought they'd have to pay for it which scared them.
That was the Tory propaganda which you're dutifully parroting. Except it wasn't true.

Voters last week were six percentage points more likely to support railway nationalisation than they were at the 2017 election, with 64 per cent in favour and just 23 per cent opposed. Support for water companies’ renationalisation also increased by the same amount, with 63 per cent now in favour and 23 per cent opposed.

Public support for nationalisation increased while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader, poll finds
 
For me it was of course Brexit, the bonkers economic manifesto and Corbyn himself and his inability to lead or convince on either. Others have their view, that's mine.
What was the "bonkers economics manifesto" and why do you think the Tory one was, presumably, better?
 
Oh come ON! The manifesto was of scarcely more than academic interest because Labour had zero chance of getting the majority they needed in order to implement it. The only possible outcomes were a Tory majority or a hung Parliament with a fractious Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition which would have been consumed by arguments about the 2nd referendum, extension(s), who's in the cabinet and who really has the power and who is leaking about who. If normal government business had got a look in, all party manifestos would have been history and a new coalition programme would have to have been negotiated. If/when the coalition had collapsed and another election had been needed, Johnson and Corbyn would have been replaced by their parties and there'd be new manifestos. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that Labour supporters are still talking about Corbyn's manifesto. It's just waste paper.
 
Bonkers manifesto was along the lines of

free broadband for everyone!
Free money for everyone!

it was garbage

No one read it let alone actually believed any of it in the first place.
 
Bonkers manifesto was along the lines of

free broadband for everyone!
Free money for everyone!

it was garbage

No one read it let alone actually believed any of it in the first place.
Free broadband is totally feasible, as is ensuring people get a decent standard of living. But I can see you've all up for the tax-dodging, NHS-flogging, rich benefiting Tories and their campaign of scaremongering and blatant lies.
‘Broadband communism’? Outside the UK, public broadband is a raving success
 
I just despair about the left's failure to get their act together. The factionalism and in-fighting are beyond belief. Maybe PR would be the answer? We could have separate parties for socialists and Blairites and maybe a centrist party for Left Behind Northerners to stop them voting for the Tories who think of them as scum.
 
I just despair about the left's failure to get their act together. The factionalism and in-fighting are beyond belief. Maybe PR would be the answer? We could have separate parties for socialists and Blairites and maybe a centrist party for Left Behind Northerners to stop them voting for the Tories who think of them as scum.
Against a relentlessly hostile mainstream media and a well funded social media campaign that was essentially a bag of fucking lies - along with people's willingness to accept the utter shit that was being shovelled their way - it'll take more than a PR campaign to correct the torrent of damning misinformation that condemned Labour and Corbyn.

This notion that the Tories have better or more grounded policies is laughable folly - if they'd been subjected to the same bullshit media onslaught, the outcome may well have been different.
 
Against a relentlessly hostile mainstream media and a well funded social media campaign that was essentially a bag of fucking lies - along with people's willingness to accept the utter shit that was being shovelled their way - it'll take more than a PR campaign to correct the torrent of damning misinformation that condemned Labour and Corbyn.

This notion that the Tories have better or more grounded policies is laughable folly - if they'd been subjected to the same bullshit media onslaught, the outcome may well have been different.
I this kind of attitude is what lost labour the red wall. “You are being lied to and you are too stupid to see it”.

There is also an assumption being made that by calling out Labour here for their inept leader and policies, people are supporting the Tories. I don’t see that at all.

I voted labour. If my current MP wasn’t as good as she is I probably wouldn’t have voted at all as a protest against Corbyn. But I could never vote Tory. In general I don’t think any party really represents me at the moment.
 
I this kind of attitude is what lost labour the red wall. “You are being lied to and you are too stupid to see it”.
Makes you wonder why the Tories dedicated so much time and money to their lie-riddled social media campaign, eh? But if you're going to present an argument that the relentless campaign of damning disinformation across social media and the mainstream press played no part in Labour's downfall and disengagement with the public, let's hear it.

I'm of the opinion that it played a huge part just like it did with the stinking bullshit presented to the public about Brexit and the NHS funding fantasy.
 
Weird how nationalising the railways is now seen as some wild, unworkable, pie-in-the-sky policy, but having an endless succession of asset-stripping, under-performing, money haemorrhaging, profit-driven, foreign-owned private companies running things is seen as sound, common sense.
 
Weird how nationalising the railways is now seen as some wild, unworkable, pie-in-the-sky policy, but having an endless succession of asset-stripping, under-performing, money haemorrhaging, profit-driven, foreign-owned private companies running things is seen as sound, common sense.
You assume an awful lot of things from people’s posts that aren’t there at all. Bit ironic considering the points you are making about media disinformation.
 
bit early for me tbh but thanks for the offer. might get back to you on that Friday eve.

That made me laugh. :thumbs::D

It was a late night intemperate post that I deleted in morning. Sometimes I get a bit carried away. Long shifts at moment. Plus drinking.
 
And so the shift to the right of the Brixton forum continues....

Yes it does continue.

Going to have to calm down a bit before I put in measured response.

As measured as I'm able.

On politics boards what you have posted would be regarded as pretty mainstream.
 
Bonkers manifesto was along the lines of

free broadband for everyone!
Free money for everyone!

it was garbage

No one read it let alone actually believed any of it in the first place.

I did actually read about it from one of the Labour parties advisors.

I see from this post your problem isn't just Corbyn but the whole shift to the left by Labour party.

Which in inner London got a thumbs up.

Here is James Meadway on the economic parts of the Labour party manifesto. He is advisor to Corbyn on economic matters.

He is interesting on how so called neutral criticism is in fact ideological.

Worth a read:

Don’t Believe the Critics — Labour’s Economic Plans Are Credible

In summary he is saying that the Labour party economic programme would have just put UK back up in the mainstream. Compared to other EU countries. That is on government intervention in economy.

What is radical is that this would be done in five years.

This country has gone down so far the road of Thatcherite Neo Liberalism as compared to other developed Western economies that putting it back to the mainstream would appear to be radical. Blue line is now Red line is proposed by the Labour party manifesto.

Not bonkers at all.

Screen-Shot-2019-11-27-at-19.18.16.png

So far from being bonkers lefty programme the counter argument could be that its not overthrowing capitalism.

Its using State power to curb the worst excesses of capitalism.

And its not out of line with other EU mainstream countries.

I find it somewhat contradictory for posters here to complain that Corbyn Labour party wasn't Remain enough. Then complain that the Labour party economic programme is bonkers. When its in line with most other EU countries.

The bonkers eonomic programme in Labour party manifesto would have moved UK from being compared to USA to mainstream European.

To quote Meadway:
“Make Britain Normal Again” is not exactly a campaign slogan, but it’s what Labour sets out. What’s dramatic is the change in direction – that instead of forty years of moving, sometimes quickly, sometimes at a dawdle, towards a dystopian neoliberal hell-world, Labour’s manifesto would turn our society 180 degrees round and set us off towards Scandinavia.
 
Last edited:
You assume an awful lot of things from people’s posts that aren’t there at all. Bit ironic considering the points you are making about media disinformation.
No idea why you're getting the 'irony' from. It's been clearly stated here that Labour's plans were supposedly 'bonkers,' 'not believable' and 'not economic,' so what are you basing your 'media disinformation' claim on?

What's your opinion on Labour's plans to nationalise the railways?
 
No idea why you're getting the 'irony' from. It's been clearly stated here that Labour's plans were supposedly 'bonkers,' 'not believable' and 'not economic,' so what are you basing your 'media disinformation' claim on?

What's your opinion on Labour's plans to nationalise the railways?
You’re doing your thing where you take somebodies opinion on a large subject, in this case the labour economic manifesto and try make it about 1 small part of that large subject, in this case nationalising the railways. Sorry not falling for it. :)
 
You’re doing your thing where you take somebodies opinion on a large subject, in this case the labour economic manifesto and try make it about 1 small part of that large subject, in this case nationalising the railways. Sorry not falling for it. :)
I asked you a specific question, directly related to the discussion. I'll ask again. What's your opinion on Labour's plans to nationalise the railways?
 
Weird how nationalising the railways is now seen as some wild, unworkable, pie-in-the-sky policy, but having an endless succession of asset-stripping, under-performing, money haemorrhaging, profit-driven, foreign-owned private companies running things is seen as sound, common sense.

Railways is a good example of where the dogma is patently false.

British government run railways bad

Italian state run west coast mainline and c2c
German state run chiltern, cross country, overground, northern

good
 
Free broadband is totally feasible, as is ensuring people get a decent standard of living. But I can see you've all up for the tax-dodging, NHS-flogging, rich benefiting Tories and their campaign of scaremongering and blatant lies.
‘Broadband communism’? Outside the UK, public broadband is a raving success
Interesting article. Can't vouch for it 100%. The bit about BT and fibre in the 1980s I mean. As far as I can see broadband was only available to users in the year 2000 - notwithstanding that BT had researched how to provide in as far back as 1992.

I agree that BT and indeed broadcasting assets such as BBC and ITV transmitters have been privatised to hell - but this does not mean that the old state-run pre-1984 BT were active in broadband or WiFi. They could not have been.
 
Interesting article. Can't vouch for it 100%. The bit about BT and fibre in the 1980s I mean. As far as I can see broadband was only available to users in the year 2000 - notwithstanding that BT had researched how to provide in as far back as 1992.

I agree that BT and indeed broadcasting assets such as BBC and ITV transmitters have been privatised to hell - but this does not mean that the old state-run pre-1984 BT were active in broadband or WiFi. They could not have been.

Before privatisation by Thatcher BT was seen as cutting edge for updating technology by other countries like Korea. The reaction from Korea to the privatisation was this:

(Korea now has super fast as standard.)

recalls “our colleagues in Korea and Japan, who were working with [us] quite closely at the time, stood back and looked at what happened to us in amazement.”

What happened is that Britain fell victim to a dogma that the private sector, and specifically private corporations, can and will deliver any and all goods and services better than the public sector. While much of the rest of the world has since begun to re-evaluate this theory (or never bought into it so wholeheartedly in the first place), Britain remains trapped.

The Labour Party’s proposal to establish a publicly owned broadband network, free for all users, is an important opportunity to break out of this ideological prison and begin to establish common sense approaches and institutions that have the demonstrated potential to lead to a more equitable, prosperous, and sustainable economy.
From :

‘Broadband communism’? Outside the UK, public broadband is a raving success

Basically the article is saying Neo liberalism is so ingrained in this country as commonsense that Labour policy appears extreme. In reality its not.

The article also has examples from US of locally owned broadband providers. Who have stepped in due to private companies being not interested.

Was chatting to friend up North whose just got fibre broadband through a not for profit company.

From :

Labours Broadband proposal...

my post 224
 
Last edited:
This is undoubtedly true and I think it put off a lot of people. It's legitimate for people to question what a massive spending program would mean for them. I think they either didn't believe it making the manifesto meaningless to them or thought they'd have to pay for it which scared them.

My post here #500
 
Oh come ON! The manifesto was of scarcely more than academic interest because Labour had zero chance of getting the majority they needed in order to implement it. The only possible outcomes were a Tory majority or a hung Parliament with a fractious Labour/Lib Dem/SNP coalition which would have been consumed by arguments about the 2nd referendum, extension(s), who's in the cabinet and who really has the power and who is leaking about who. If normal government business had got a look in, all party manifestos would have been history and a new coalition programme would have to have been negotiated. If/when the coalition had collapsed and another election had been needed, Johnson and Corbyn would have been replaced by their parties and there'd be new manifestos. I don't know whether to laugh or cry that Labour supporters are still talking about Corbyn's manifesto. It's just waste paper.

That is not the point.

Did you think the Labour party economic sections of the manifesto were ok or not?

Would a future Labour party with different leader but same economic programme be ok by you?
 
This is undoubtedly true and I think it put off a lot of people. It's legitimate for people to question what a massive spending program would mean for them. I think they either didn't believe it making the manifesto meaningless to them or thought they'd have to pay for it which scared them.

The argument is depressing. The argument is that if the state tries to extract more money from big business it will fail. So will get it off the less well off worker as last resort. Which is how left "bonkers" economists are seen. The message to the working class is don't vote for this out of touch airy fairy types whoo don't understand how the real economy works.

Its an argument that says there is nothing one can do.

Which is neo liberal argument.

Counter argument here:

Third, the IFS claims that even if some revenue could be obtained from increasing taxes on businesses, those tax revenues wouldn’t be coming from business — but in fact from workers, consumers, and shareholders. The specific issue at stake is what economists call the “incidence” of a tax. The government may say that a tax will be paid by a certain group of people or institutions — big corporations, say. But because that group can change its behavior in response to the tax, someone else may end up actually paying for it.

So, if (say) the government whacks a tax on the producers of boiled sweets, the manufacturers might be able to push up their prices and make sweet-toothed consumers pay for it. In the case of corporation tax, instead of companies paying their tax increases out of profits — currently at record levels in the UK — they would cut or freeze pay for their workers, increase prices for consumers, or squeeze dividends for shareholders. They might not be able to do this – trade unions might block pay cuts, or, more likely, competitive markets for what companies are selling make price rises more difficult.

This is, once again, an empirical question — one to be settled by looking at the evidence. And the evidence, once again, is not favorable to the IFS’s claims. Recent research found that there is “no robust evidence that corporate tax burdens have large depressing effects on wages.” The Institute of Public Policy Research (IPPR) looked at the available evidence and found that in larger, developed economies, far less of any corporation tax rises are passed on to workers or consumers than elsewhere and that, overall, there is no clear evidence of impact on wages or consumer prices either way.


Don’t Believe the Critics — Labour’s Economic Plans Are Credible
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom