Brixton Liveable Neighbourhood and LTN schemes - improvements for pedestrians and cyclists

[thebackrow]

I agree it helps in the case when the school and the parents are both contained in the same LTN. However it doesn't necessarily help for schools on boundary roads or where journeys need to be made across or alongside LTNs, so it's complicated.

Agree - which is why the Lambeth Transport Strategy has a number of measures -

• school streets
• LTNs
• protected cycleways on main roads
• parking restrictions

 

[Agent Sparrow]

When it's designed well then that is a great outcome.

I know I keep trashing Streatham Wells LTN, but Sunnyhill School, Hitherfield School and Dunraven School and I think most schools in Lambeth already have "school streets" (total ban on cars at pick up/drop off) set up to discourage driving, so the additional LTN restrictions are a bit more marginal

They don’t. There are plans for some but they won’t be introduced for some time, despite being badly needed.

 

[edcraw]

In anti-LTN hyperbole watch Lambeth LTN Watch members are calling for an enquiry and a “truth & reconciliation commission”!!

 

[Smick]

In anti-LTN hyperbole watch Lambeth LTN Watch members are calling for an enquiry and a “truth & reconciliation commission”!!

That’s fairly shocking, given that the term stems from apartheid.

 

[edcraw]

That’s fairly shocking, given that the term stems from apartheid.

Shocking but not unusual - social apartheid is an often used phrase as well as comparisons to communist & fascist dicatorship. I also take issue with using the language of rascism eg. lived experience especially when used by local Tories to talk about LTNs.

 

[Bus Stopped]

This kind of misses the point of how the idea of the equilibrium works.

(Assuming you don't reject the theory outright)

The reason traffic on boundary roads, overall, doesn't really increase, is that the level of traffic is determined by what drivers will tolerate. Once the traffic gets to a certain level, some drivers will just decide not to go there. That's the idea of "evaporation" and it's just the reverse process of extra capacity filling up if you provide it. You build another lane, potential drivers will realise it's there, start using it, and it'll fill up to a similar level of traffic as before and no-one gets anywhere any faster.

From the point of view of the person living in an LTN and deciding to make a car journey using a boundary road ... yes, the boundary road is not worse than it was before the LTN but the reason for that is that ultimately that that person and their neighbours cumulatively, are using it a bit less than before the LTN. If they start to use it a bit more, it gets a bit worse, and they'll tend to use it a bit less as a result. It's a kind of self regulating process and operates at a larger scale than one individual's decision-making so I can see why it might be kind of anti-intuitive and why some people have such a hard time accepting it.

This all assumes that people using cars don’t have a very high tolerance for traffic jams and inconvenience. I think a lot of them do. Especially when most of the traffic being displaced isn’t local.

As a result four months in the A23 is jam packed.

 

[nagapie]

Hopefully now the mayor is looking into the latest ltn, some of the needed adaptations will be made.

My car has certainly evaporated from Streatham because as a family who needs to drive, we simply cannot get stuck in that traffic. So where we would have used the leisure centre and various shops, we now go to Brixton or West Norwood.

 

[Cat Fan]

The mayor's words were deliberately quite vague.

It's still with Lambeth to propose and make changes to the scheme and I have zero faith in them to deliver changes that solve the problem. I can't see them going as far as scrapping the LTN or reopening valley road and I think those are the only two changes that would be meaningful.

They don't have the power to give buses more priority, that would need to be TFL and presumably there is quite a long lead time on big changes initiated by TFL.

 

[Bus Stopped]

The mayor's words were deliberately quite vague.

It's still with Lambeth to propose and make changes to the scheme and I have zero faith in them to deliver changes that solve the problem. I can't see them going as far as scrapping the LTN or reopening valley road and I think those are the only two changes that would be meaningful.

They don't have the power to give buses more priority, that would need to be TFL and presumably there is quite a long lead time on big changes initiated by TFL.

I agree. Blocking off side roads would potentially make it worse in my view, and priority for buses at the junctions wouldn't make enough difference anyway even if TfL agreed. I think opening Valley Road just for rush hours would be the best for now while they look at what other options there are.

It's interesting going down Valley Road during rush hours (walking), how few cyclists seem to be using it.

 

[edcraw]

Hopefully now the mayor is looking into the latest ltn, some of the needed adaptations will be made.

My car has certainly evaporated from Streatham because as a family who needs to drive, we simply cannot get stuck in that traffic. So where we would have used the leisure centre and various shops, we now go to Brixton or West Norwood.

Well the LTN has meant I can now shop at Aldi as can cycle there safely now so hopefully we don’t go back to prioritising those that can afford cars to start rat running again.

 

[nagapie]

Well the LTN has meant I can now shop at Aldi as can cycle there safely now so hopefully we don’t go back to prioritising those that can afford cars to start rat running again.

Well then, your Aldi shop makes it all worthwhile that those with complex needs cannot now access the facilities and shops at Streatham.

 

[edcraw]

Well then, your Aldi shop makes it all worthwhile that those with complex needs cannot now access the facilities and shops at Streatham.

Really not what I said was it but cheers for your rude reply. Just another example of anyone talking about the benefits of LTNs gets immediately shouted down and made out to be selfish. Fuck you.

I could of replied to you something snarky about how it’s a shame we’re not bending over backwards to aid your family to drive to a leisure centre but I didn’t because I know nothing about your situation as you do mine.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Really not what I said was it but cheers for your rude reply. Just another example of anyone talking about the benefits of LTNs gets immediately shouted down and made out to be selfish. Fuck you.

I could of replied to you something snarky about how it’s a shame we’re not bending over backwards to aid your family to drive to a leisure centre but I didn’t because I know nothing about your situation as you do mine.

So you making a dig about those who can afford a car being prioritised when you know nothing about their life wasn’t helpful either.

Buses fucked again. One stopped at Brixton hill. The next went up LCR on divert. Now stuck on third in jammed up traffic.

Can’t see why cyclists should take priority over those using public transport.

 

[edcraw]

So you making a dig about those who can afford a car being prioritised when you know nothing about their life wasn’t helpful either.

Car ownership skews massively to the wealthy and have been prioritised for decades. LTNs are a small rebalancing.

Buses fucked again. One stopped at Brixton hill. The next went up LCR on divert. Now stuck on third in jammed up traffic.

Can’t see why cyclists should take priority over those using public transport.

They shouldn’t and LTNs shouldn’t do this hence why the council is looking to make changes.

 

[nagapie]

Really not what I said was it but cheers for your rude reply. Just another example of anyone talking about the benefits of LTNs gets immediately shouted down and made out to be selfish. Fuck you.

I could of replied to you something snarky about how it’s a shame we’re not bending over backwards to aid your family to drive to a leisure centre but I didn’t because I know nothing about your situation as you do mine.

I responded to exactly what you said after quoting my post and thereby responding directly to it. If you don't mean it, don't post it and then have a cry about how rude I am afterwards.

The point is that non disabled people like you have access to everything and disabled people like my son have access to hardly any of society. So yes, leisure centres that cater to my son are bloody important.

You also responded and quoted my comment and felt the need to make comment about money. Our car is paid for out of my son's DLA. We sacrifice many other things you probably take for granted so we can have this or I would struggle to take him anywhere at all.

But the most important point is is that drivers are still using the roads while the unintended consequence is that families like mine are forced off it.

And finally when you're not posting ridiculous examples comparing your life to those with complex needs, you are always posting the bat shitness of One Lambeth etc thereby assisting them in drowning out real debate about real people's needs.

 

[Bus Stopped]

Car ownership skews massively to the wealthy and have been prioritised for decades. LTNs are a small rebalancing.

They shouldn’t and LTNs shouldn’t do this hence why the council is looking to make changes.

In general I agree with you about car ownership but not when it comes to people with disabilities being excluded.

I look forward to the changes. Short of opening up valley road for rush hours I can’t see what they can do.

Meanwhile this has been a big own goal in promoting LTNs.

 

[edcraw]

I responded to exactly what you said after quoting my post and thereby responding directly to it. If you don't mean it, don't post it and then have a cry about how rude I am afterwards.

The point is that non disabled people like you have access to everything and disabled people like my son have access to hardly any of society. So yes, leisure centres that cater to my son are bloody important.

You also responded and quoted my comment and felt the need to make comment about money. Our car is paid for out of my son's DLA. We sacrifice many other things you probably take for granted so we can have this or I would struggle to take him anywhere at all.

But the most important point is is that drivers are still using the roads while the unintended consequence is that families like mine are forced off it.

And finally when you're not posting ridiculous examples comparing your life to those with complex needs, you are always posting the bat shitness of One Lambeth etc thereby assisting them in drowning out real debate about real people's needs.

Okay - the money comment was unnecessary and stupid of me.

I wanted to highlight that car owners have a lot easier access to things than non car owners.

 

[edcraw]

In general I agree with you about car ownership but not when it comes to people with disabilities being excluded.

Agreed

Meanwhile this has been a big own goal in promoting LTNs.

I’m not sure - I think it highlights that the others are working pretty well.

 

[nagapie]

Okay - the money comment was unnecessary and stupid of me.

I wanted to highlight that car owners have a lot easier access to things than non car owners.

I was clearly making a point about disability, who even with cars have way less access than you can imagine as you repeatedly show.

The money wasn't the only bit of your post that was shit.

 

[edcraw]

I was clearly making a point about disability, who even with cars have way less access than you can imagine as you repeatedly show.

The money wasn't the only bit of your post that was shit.

It wasn’t clear to me.

 

[editor]

So you making a dig about those who can afford a car being prioritised when you know nothing about their life wasn’t helpful either.

Buses fucked again. One stopped at Brixton hill. The next went up LCR on divert. Now stuck on third in jammed up traffic.

Can’t see why cyclists should take priority over those using public transport.

But that's not the underlying problem, which is how cars have traditionally taken priority over everything, and how cars are allowed to totally dominate streets while polluting the fuck out of the environment.

 

[Bus Stopped]

But that's not the underlying problem, which is how cars have traditionally taken priority over everything, and how cars are allowed to totally dominate streets while polluting the fuck out of the environment.

I actually agree. But this LTN is making those cars dominate the high street. If it was just cars clogged up I would have far less of an issue. Other than the pollution.

 

[edcraw]

I actually agree. But this LTN is making those cars dominate the high street. If it was just cars clogged up I would have far less of an issue. Other than the pollution.

So better priority for buses rather than reopening Valley Road which is what you’ve suggested.

 

[thebackrow]

But that's not the underlying problem, which is how cars have traditionally taken priority over everything, and how cars are allowed to totally dominate streets while polluting the fuck out of the environment.

Exactly. If anyone could point out all the safe space and routes that people cycling have been unreasonably provided with in this area I’ll be all ears.

 

[edcraw]

As an aside as to why so many LTN supporters are cyclists despite LTNs not being really that much about cycling it’s because it’s painfully clear to us all the time how selfish so many drivers are with no care for anyone else.

I used to only use main road as side streets were just too dangerous - LTNs have changed that and made it possible for my kid to cycle to school and my wife to work and my mother-in-law walk to the shops by her self.

 

[Smick]

despite LTNs not being really that much about cycling

It is entirely about cycling. The reason why Valley Road was selected for LTN is because they want to have a route which allows cycling from South London right to central with vehicle numbers beneath a certain volume.

 

[Smick]

This all assumes that people using cars don’t have a very high tolerance for traffic jams and inconvenience. I think a lot of them do. Especially when most of the traffic being displaced isn’t local.

As a result four months in the A23 is jam packed.

I hired a Tesla in Luxembourg a while ago. I didn’t use / trust it but, from what I understand, you can sit in a traffic jam and it will edge the car forward when there’s space, stop by itself, steer etc.

Nobody can make the loss of time seem worthwhile, but modern cars can be very pleasant to sit in while in a traffic jam. As nice as sitting in your living room, and about as much effort also.

 

[edcraw]

It is entirely about cycling. The reason why Valley Road was selected for LTN is because they want to have a route which allows cycling from South London right to central with vehicle numbers beneath a certain volume.

No it’s not, it’s about not giving over all our streets to cars and letting them dominate them at the expense of everyone else. Please don’t ignore the impacts of cars on our city.

Who’s “they” by the way? The evil cycle lobby?

 

[edcraw]

Reminder: the majority of Londoners manage (& most have no choice) without cars. We shouldn’t prioritise those that have the luxury of choosing to have a car at their expense.

 

[Smick]

No it’s not, it’s about not giving over all our streets to cars and letting them dominate them at the expense of everyone else. Please don’t ignore the impacts of cars on our city.

Who’s “they” by the way? The evil cycle lobby?

By “they”, I mean the council. Those responsible for the design, implementation, and ultimate success of the LTN.